RE: [hw-rules] Digest Number 926

From: Roger McCarthy <rogermccarthy_at_z-s8oDwZa1E0u-6SAhNZb0XbOP_I6hQS8HFW0qYFxXXk2QSBn_v7_MvA7ow0_Gp5p>
Date: Sun, 26 May 2002 20:35:24 +0100


In my last post I suggested that under the new draft Heroquest rules for masteries (where you only ever get one bump up from a mastery advantage and any further masteries bump your opponents level of success down) in a contest between a 10w5 Harrek and a 10w3 Heortling Clan Champion the champion would be marginally better off than under the existing system.

Having done a table to map the two sets of possible outcomes I realise this is of course wrong and that being bumped down is actually far worse than having your opponent get multiple bump ups as your chance for a fumble and thus your opponents chance of a complete victory is greatly increased.

I actually played out three examples using both systems and in all cases it only took Harrek three rounds to reduce the clan champion from 70 to under 0 AP's - the difference being that while in two of the old system examples the Clan Champion ended up just hurt, with the same rolls in all three new system examples he was very dead indeed.

Given that two of my issues with HW is that contests between opponents with high starting APs can take an inordinately long time and that far too many combats end up with an anti-climactically dazed but unhurt opponent, this greater chance of complete victory/defeat is probably a good thing even if does make w3+ characters even more powerful against weaker foes.

A comparison of possible outcomes and the three examples follow - of course the outcomes are exactly the same if a 10w3 clan champion fights a 10w weaponthane or a 10w2 weaponthane a 10 peasant - which are probably better examples:

EXISTING SYSTEM (masteries cancel to Harrek 10w2/Clan Champion 10 - Harrek gets two bumps)

Clan Champion rolls 1 (crit) and Harrek rolls 1 (crit) - tie/narrator determines result

Clan Champion rolls 1 (crit) and Harrek rolls 2-19 (crit) - Clan Champion gets marginal victory as lower roller although I believe this is still a tie in an extended contest (as narrator I'd probably have Harrek forfeit 1x the bid)

Clan Champion rolls 1 (crit) and Harrek scores 20 (success) - Clan Champion gets minor victory/Harrek transfers x1 bid

Clan Champion rolls 2-10 (success) and Harrek rolls 1-19 (crit) Harrek gets minor victory/clan champion transfers x1

Clan Champion rolls 2-10 (success) and Harrek rolls 20 (success) - Clan Champion gets marginal victory as lower roller/Harrek forfeits x1

Clan Champion rolls 11-19 (fail) and Harrek rolls 1-19 (crit) - Harrek gets major victory/Clan Champion transfers x2

Clan Champion rolls 11-19 (fail) and Harrek rolls 20 (success) - Harrek gets minor victory/Clan Champion transfers x1

Clan Champion rolls 20 (fumble) and Harrek rolls 1-19 (crit) Harrek gets complete victory/Clan Champion transfers x3

Clan Champion rolls 20 (fumble) and Harrek rolls 20 (success) Harrek gets major victory/Clan Champion forfeits x3

Thus even with two bumps Harrek still needs his opponent to roll a 20 and fumble to get a complete victory/transferx3 and on average only gets a major or complete victory every other roll.

NEW SYSTEM (Harrek bumped up one, Clan Champion bumped down one)

Clan Champion rolls 1 (success) and Harrek rolls 1-10 (crit) - Harrek gets minor victory/clan champion transfers x1

Clan Champion rolls 1 (success) and Harrek rolls 11-19 (success) - Clan Champion gets marginal victory as lower roller/Harrek forfeits x1

Clan Champion rolls 1 (success) and Harrek scores 20 (fail) - Clan Champion gets minor victory/Harrek transfers x1

Clan Champion rolls 2-10 (fail) and Harrek rolls 1-10 (crit) - Harrek gets major victory/Clan Champion transfers x2

Clan Champion rolls 2-10 (fail) and Harrek rolls 11-19 (success) - Harrek gets minor victory/Clan Champion forfeits x2

Clan Champion rolls 2-10 (fail) and Harrek rolls 20 (fail) - both suffer marginal defeat/Harrek forfeits x1 as higher roller

Clan Champion rolls 11-20 (fumble) and Harrek rolls 1-10 (crit) Harrek gets complete victory/Clan Champion transfers x3

Clan Champion rolls 11-20 (fumble) and Harrek rolls 20 (fail) Clan champion suffers minor defeat/Clan Champion forfeits x1 and Harrek forfeits x2

Note Harrek now gets a complete victory every time he rolls under 10 and his opponent rolls 11+ and always gets a minor, major or complete victory unless either he rolls 20 and/or his opponent rolls a 1 (this is also true under the existing system - the much greater chance of Harrek gaining a complete victory being the key difference)



(all examples assume that combatants bid 1/5 of current AP's)

EXAMPLE 1: EXISTING SYSTEM Round 1
Harrek [110 APs] bids 22 AP's and rolls 15 (crit), Champion [70 AP's] rolls 9 (success) and transfers 22 APs to Harrek taking him to 48 APs and Harrek to 132

Round 2
Champion bids 10 AP's and rolls 10 (success), Harrek rolls 8 (crit) - champion transfers 10 APs to Harrek taking him down to 38 APs and Harrek to 142

Round 3
Harrek bids 28 APs and rolls 7 (crit), Champion rolls 18 (failure) and transfers 56 AP's to Harrek taking him to -18 and Harrek to 198

NEW SYSTEM - SAME ROLLS Round 1
Harrek [110 APs] bids 22 AP's and rolls 15 (success), Champion [70 AP's] rolls 9 (fail) and forfeits 22 APs taking him to 48 APs

Round 2
Champion bids 10 AP's and rolls 10 (fail), Harrek rolls 8 (crit) - Champion transfers 20 APs to Harrek taking him down to 28 APs and Harrek to 138

Round 3
Harrek bids 28 APs and rolls 7 (crit), Champion rolls 18 (fumble) and transfers 84 AP's to Harrek taking him to -56 and Harrek to 236

Thus under the old system after three rounds the Champion is defeated but alive (although either getting Harrek to accept his surrender or successfully running away might be a bit of a problem) whereas under the new system in three rounds he is very dead indeed.


EXAMPLE 2: EXISTING SYSTEM Round 1
Harrek [110 APs] bids 22 AP's and rolls 4 (crit), Champion [70 AP's] rolls 20 (fumble) and transfers 66 APs to Harrek taking him to 4 APs and Harrek to 176

Round 2
Champion bids 1 AP and rolls 18 (fail), Harrek rolls 10 (crit) - champion transfers 2 APs to Harrek taking him down to 2 AP and Harrek to 178

Round 3
Harrek bids 36 APs and rolls 1 (crit), Champion rolls 7 (success) and transfers 36 AP's to Harrek taking him to -35 and Harrek to 214

NEW SYSTEM - SAME ROLLS Round 1
Harrek [110 APs] bids 22 AP's and rolls 4 (crit), Champion [70 AP's] rolls 20 (fumble) and transfers 66 APs to Harrek taking him to 4 APs and Harrek to 176

Round 2
Champion bids 1 AP and rolls 18 (fumble), Harrek rolls 10 (crit) - champion transfers 3 APs to Harrek taking him down to 1 AP and Harrek to 179

Round 3
Harrek bids 36 APs and rolls 1 (crit), Champion rolls 7 (fail) and transfers 72 AP's to Harrek taking him to -71 and Harrek to 251

In this case the Champion rolls badly and adds up dead under both systems


EXAMPLE 3: EXISTING SYSTEM Round 1
Harrek [110 APs] bids 22 AP's and rolls 12 (crit), Champion [70 AP's] rolls 19 (fail) and transfers 44 APs to Harrek taking him to 26 APs and Harrek to 154

Round 2
Champion bids 5 APs and rolls 3 (success), Harrek rolls 19 (crit) - champion transfers 5 APs to Harrek taking him down to 21 AP and Harrek to 159

Round 3
Harrek bids 32 APs and rolls 5 (crit), Champion also rolls 5 (success) and transfers 32 AP's to Harrek taking him to -11 and Harrek to 191

NEW SYSTEM - SAME ROLLS Round 1
Harrek [110 APs] bids 22 AP's and rolls 12 (success), Champion [70 AP's] rolls 19 (fumble) and forfeits 66 APs taking him to 4 APs

Round 2
Champion bids 1 AP and rolls 3 (fail), Harrek rolls 19 (success) - champion forfeits AP k taking him down to 3 APs

Round 3
Harrek bids 22 APs and rolls 5 (crit), Champion also rolls 5 (fail) and transfers 44 AP's to Harrek taking him to -41 and Harrek to 164

As in example one the Champion ends up beaten but alive under the old system and very dead in the new one.

Roger             Received on Sun 26 May 2002 - 12:33:07 EEST

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