From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Sun 14 Nov 1993 - 11:00:16 EET
Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 2285
>Sandy said:
>[Re: lots o' stuff about Lunar troop strength]
>> Your estimates look pretty good to me. I can't imagine the Char-un
>> ever sending 1/5 of their entire population to help the Lunars fight.
>That was the point of all my caveats.
[...]
>No Way are they all
>going to head off south to fight a war in a country they've never heard of
>(unless the Ice gets real close, the Elves come back, and the Ancestors
>start talking: but that's nomad migrations for you; can't imagine the
>Lunars would *ever* encourage that).
Well, as soon as Charg is freed from the Ban, that's the way I'd send the Char-un - all of them, and gain another ally from the east to settle in the Char-un area. est way to deal with trouble-makers is to use them up, and to split larger groups into smaller ones.
>> Since the Lunar Sable folk have been a part of the empire since the
>> Assault on Glamour, I think that your 20% max mobilization may be too
>> high. Seems like nearly 350 years of exposure to Lunar culture and
>> luxuries may have softened them compared to traditional Praxians.
>Point taken. They are perhaps a bit more settled than trad. Praxians, and
>have after all had over a thousand years of cultural divergence, usually
>confined to a fairly cramped space. Anyone been to the top of the Hungry
>Plateau to see what the Sables are getting up to?
They rule Kostaddi. Those who do so don't live on the Hungry Plateau, though, that's a place for traditionalists (and maybe for lowland youths to receive a classical initiation, but then to return).
BTW: Arkat's Praxian allies were led by a Vorwaha Bisonrider (Uz Lore); where in Peloria do we find the descendants of the other interim rulers the arious Theyalan incursions on Dara Happa (Argentium Thri'ile, Arkat's Gbaji-hunt, the EWF expansion) drew from Praxian nobility and imposed on the Pelorian natives? Are (or were) there Rhino-, Impala-, Bison- and Alticamelus- chieftains become nobility?
>> Same goes for the Char-un. Which may help with those *52* counters.
>Not quite so convinced by this: they are a bunch of hairy Cossacks with
>bugger all to do Up North except fight one another and sign on with the
>Lunars' Job Creation Schemes. But as my estimates are (a) crude and (b)
>irrelevant (until the wars reach Kostaddi or Erigia), it doesn't really
>matter, yet...
They're conveniently close to handle trouble in Carmania. And an Empire that feeds citizens to chaos horrors won't shed a tear at cossacks' atrocities, committed for the greater honour of the Moon.
David Dunham in X-RQ-ID: 2286
>>From: joe@sartar.toppoint.de (Joerg Baumgartner)
>># Plus receiving considerable help from Maniria, e.g. Goldgotti (FA).
>Goldgotti is Manirian? Do you have a source for this? (I'd love to know
>more about the counters.)
The Dragon Pass rules booklet says on p.31: "The rest of the Free Army collected gradually. [...] volunteers from elsewhere [...] Goldgotti, a Merchant Prince."
Merchant Princes are important in Western Maniria. They are found in the Holy Country (also Maniria) and in Ralios, too, but I think it is not very probable that Ralian troops participated before the heroes were gathered for the final battles against the Red Moon (fought on the Saird/Dara Happan border, if I interpret KoS correctly).
Sandy Petersen in X-RQ-ID: 2287
>COMMENTS ON JOERG'S DP SUGGESTIONS
>re: Magic fortresses. Having the TotRM give you an infinite magic
>factor seems a big much. How about just doubling it? Ditto for other
>magic sites.
Sounds more sensible, agreed. So these sites gain a magic factor of =.
>re: Telmori. Though the Wolfrunners are generally unfriendly to the
>other Sartarite tribes, they would NOT ally with the Lunars against a
>Prince of Sartar. They are, in fact, fanatically loyal to the House
>of Sartar. If there were a rebellion against the Lunars in which the
>rebel leader was not a Prince or Princess, all bets are off, and
>they'd probably join with the Lunars because of the moon connection.
>The ducks are also fanatically loyal to the House of Sartar. This
>dates back to ancient secret treaties made between these two groups
>and Sartar himself.
So Sandy can be Gregged, too: KoS, p.26: "... the werewolf folk turned against Argrath, ..."
>Joerg sez:
>>All subjected to random factors, as the Empire is chaotic.
>I really hate random factors in wargames, myself, and would vote
>against this random factor business. Incidentally, the Empire's PR is
>that they can control chaos, and in addition the Empire is NOT
>chaotic -- it combines chaos with the real world. Perhaps the Empire
>should have, to make up for its shortcomings in diplomacy, a bunch of
>points they can spend to "buy" units from their exotic pile, (the
>Vampire Legion, Moon Boats, Arrolians)
Sensible alternative. Maybe randomize the availability of these troops. :-)
>re: Trolls. IMO, the trollkin have been rated too high. Argan Argar
>troll spearmen might possibly be worth a 3-2-3-X, but untrained
>trollkin can hardly be better than 1-1-3-X. Maybe 1*-1-3-X.
The Dagori Inkarth warbands are shown as mixed bands. Cragspider's units seem to be almost exceptional in that they split between trols and trollkin. And her 6-6-6-X might well be uzdo, not uzko.
>> The Pharaoh would be a hero at least, with the power to return from
>> the dead on 2 to 6 on d6.
>Given my dislike for random factors ("I'd have won that fight if I
>hadn't rolled a '1' when you killed the Pharaoh.") I suggest that the
>Pharaoh always return from the dead unless he is killed in a fight by
>a Superhero or Hero or Dragon.
>re: Fazzur Wideread. Fazzur is no hero, and should not have the stats
>of Ethilrist. At best he's the equivalent to one of the nomad Khans
>from Nomad Gods.
Fazzur might not be a hero (i.e. no heroic escape), but he certainly is a charismatic and able leader - therefore the (4)!! combat factor for him and his bodyguard. Maybe leave out the brackets.
>The great Lunar innovation in combat was that they were the first
>people ever to organize magicians into military units. The Lunar
>Colleges of Magic, as portrayed in DP, were a first. The standard way
>that everyone fought in Glorantha was to disseminate their lesser
>priests, sorcerers, and shamans among their military units to provide
>them with "magic support". The Lunars, instead, grouped their
>magicians together.
>Argrath was the first guy ever to respond to this by emulating it,
>with his Magical Union. This is why Argrath was able to face the
>Lunars on a more equal basis than previous enemies. He used their own
>tactic against them.
How come the Exile magicians then? They seem to be an older institution than Argrath's troops.
>So, you ask, what is a "normal" Gloranthan army like in wargame
>terms? It is composed of ordinary troop counters, with the only
>magic-using troops being Exotics. Special temple units that happened
>to fight together, like the Earth Shakers, might show up as a magic
>unit. Also, of course, Heroes and special magicians like the Nomad
>God Shamans strengthen you magically.
I took the Exiles and the Dragonewts as the model rather than the other major independents, because in DP they seem normal. For the Esrolites I already assumed less magician units, while the Hendriki knights would be similar to Argrath's mounted magicians - individuals with magical and fighting prowess. The Hrestoli knights of Loskalm would be so, too.
>The advantage of the old-fashioned way of doing things is that all
>your units had a slightly stronger magic factor. A few units, with a
>really high complement of magic-types, might even have a magic range
>of 0.
They also influence morale and fighting power.
>The advantage of the Lunar way is obvious, Imagine a Sartarite army
>with +1 added to all of its magic factors (well, maybe not to the
>Sartar City Militia), but without the bulk of the Magic Union -- only
>exceptional magic units that fight together like the Stormwalkers,
>Wind Children, etc. would be present as separate units. The Lunars
>would, of course, kick butt.
>Now, in Joerg's plans for Kethaela's army, this truth should be
>applied.
>Shadow Plateau is unlikely to have two units of shamans, and one
>sorcerer. Instead, they'd have the Dehori and Shades, as mentioned,
>plus probably one Castle of Lead unit with lots o magic ability
>(representing the Mistress Race and their guards). I'd give them at
>least one Zorak Zoran gang with the power to go berserk and double
>their combat power at the cost of being disrupted after the battle.
>Caladraland might have one separate magic unit of Volcano Priests for
>each major Volcano. But that's probably all, as far as magic support.
These would be less useful outside of Caladraland (where volcanic activities are high); therefore I omitted them for the Building Wall Battle.
>God Forgot would actually have a few magician-like units with exotic
>abilities. There's the Flying Machine unit, for instance, composed of
>insane inventors with bicycle-like or flapping-winged devices (I
>actually saw this unit in the old game for this region).
So it existed? What was its distribution? (I.e. how do I get my grubby hands on it?)
>Rightarm Island -- probably no magicians. Maybe provide the exotic
>magic ability for the Pharaoh to control the tides or something.
>Wenelian mercenaries -- not like the Pol Joni, since more of them are
>on foot and they're wilder/less sophisticated than the Sartar City
>Militia. Maybe modeling them after the Sartar tribal units is best.
>Graymane needs to be there, too, of course. If Graymane is killed,
>probably all of them would leave, possibly pillaging as they went.
Rereading p.31 of the DP rules, I'm not so certain whether the Barbarian Horde is Praxian or Orlanthi from Barbarian Town. Any offers?
>Esrolia has plenty of crappy militia (I think the right mix here is
>15 3-3-2-X, 25 2-2-2-X, and 20 1-1-2-X units -- mostly only good for
>garrison duty.)
Why so slow? Even Esrolites ought to be more agile than Zombies.
>For specialty troops, I suggest one each of the six
>Earth cults.
RQC names several strange Earth deities for Esrolia (one even male). Wouldn't these be present, too?
>Wolf Pirates probably make a bad ally for the Holy Country, seeing as
>they sacked the City of Wonders at one point.
So did Harrek with Boldhome, and the Wenelians in Esrolia. They are a powerful, but likely illoyal ally. If victory is counted after cities, the side allying them would take two cities less into account.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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