From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Sat 09 Apr 1994 - 11:03:58 EEST
Nigel Johnston in X-RQ-ID: 3540
> ANDERSJC@howdy.Princeton.EDU (Paul Anderson) says
>> The point on "the human species" is well taken, but I don't think Glorantha >> has Linnaean species at all. Another hybrid is Gwalynkus the Good, who reigned >> in Dorastor c. 150. (D p.6) He is mostly descended from Theyalan humans, but >> his mother's father is a dwarf, and his father was descended in the female line >> from a dryad.
> I remember finding this a bit strange. Dwarfs are basically edible stone
> arent they ? Flintnail bothered me for the same reason.
So what? Men created by Lodril et al are basically edible dirt. Both the Agimori and the Dara Happan creation myths have Lodril involved kneading some dirt into manshape, and getting the help of one or more other deities for the details (Trickster in Agimori legends, the Yelmic Court in Dara Happan myths).
> Also Gwalynkus is also supposed to have married one of the last of the gold
> wheel dancers. Pinniching (from the cradle scenario) is supposed to be a Gold
> wheel dancer too, yet he (she? it?) is a spinning hoop. You would have to be
> pretty wierd to marry a spinning hoop I think.
This is not as weird as it seems on first look. I picture the First Council as a community where a lot of incidents from the lost Gods Age were transformed into religious rites.
> So either Gwalynkus was deranged, or GW Dancers had more than one form, or the
> author of the history had a fetish for strange unions...
A marriage between certain kinds of priesthood is necessary for certain Theyalan rites, such as the River ritual. In GRoY Oslira, the blue serpent, couples with the Earth Spirit (an entity not explained, but probably one aspect of Genert). Nobody ever had the temerity to ask for the physical activities involved in that, but it worked. (No, I don't want to see a Kamasutra for deities. Do I?)
> Does anyone have anymore info on the Gold Wheel Dancers ?
Apart from the Cradle one, the story of Urrgh, the mention in Dorastor and peripheral mention in texts about the First Council I know of no published RQ supplement mentioning more.
>> John Hughes talked about the kresh a day or two ago.
> When I first read about the Kresh I assumed it must be dinosaurs pulling the
> wagons. I agree that humans pulling them is a bit harder to cope with.
I imagine Kresh wagons to be always on the move. Since they are enormous, so is their momentum. As long as the terrain is reasonably flat, all a team of pullers would have to do is to compensate for energy losses due to friction. The hard exercise would be either to stop a wagon, or to start it. I'd reserve momentary use of magic for these cases.
There would be a regular ceremony to maintain the wagon, like the Cannon Cult humans have to care for their guns. The wagon would be the focus of ancestor worship as well - how do the Kresh bury their dead? Do they bury them like the Doraddi, and take some token from their medicine plants to include into the wagon?
The average wagon would be similar to the eternal knife (one changes either the handle or the blade, but it remains the same knife), rebuilt over generations.
This would make the question why the Kresh started to move along in wagons, and how a new wagon/clan is started, more interesting. Somehow the Kresh seem to suffer from a mutated Jmijie virus. Could the end of the Six-legged Empire have been the starting point for the Kresh?
Guy Robinson in X-RQ-ID: 3541
> It is still a scam if
> the population is subdued to allow the rulers to profit from
> the tranquility and the worship of the populace.
No, that's a state-bearing religion. The Orlanthi don't qualify, because their religion is not stat-bearing, but a best clan-serving. Not even the Orlanth Rex cult could really unify these individualists.
This is why I dislike the Dara Happan way of life - it is strictly hierarchic, plus divided into castes ordained by birth. Only via extraordinary success in one of the minor Solar cults one can hope to aspire full citizenship in Dara Happa, possibly accompanied by a ritual of rebirth. The Lunars changed that, of course, much to the gall of the Dara Happans.
> With the Wizard caste possessing the magical power within a
> sorcerous society then in a society that is not too deeply
> entrenched in its ways I believe that they would tend to rise
> to the top.
This might have been the case when Hrestol introduced the concept of chivalry. Among the Brithini, the Horal (Warrior) caste had become somewhat subservient to the Zzabur (Sorcerer) caste, but the most potent magic could only be performed if ordered by a Talar (Ruler) caste member.
The Rokari somewhat ape this form of society, with high magic restricted to the sorcerer class/caste. Don't say so in their presence, though.
The radicalist Loskalmi Hrestoli have made the class stages prerequisites for advancement, so that every ruler has been farmer, knight and sorcerer. I doubt the Castle Coast Hrestoli from Seshnela are as meritocratic, they'd retain more linealist influence. The Pamaltelan Rokari might as well be labelled linealist Hrestoli?
> I am a bit suspectfull of the non-sorcerous cultures being
> labeled as theistic. This akin to to acclaiming sorcerers
> as glorious scientists and cults as terrible pagans. While
> the sorcerers themselves might seek to claim this I do not
> think is a suitable description.
Nope. I used the (admittedly God Learner) classification from Cults of Terror which divides the general magical approaches into four lines, humanist (sorcery), theist (divine and cult spirit magic), naturalist (shamanistic spirit magic plus a limited set of special, no common, divine magic) and mystic (draconic magic? illumination? Or are both the same, only from a different starting point?). Note that I am the first to point at all the cases where two approaches overlap, e.g. Stygian Malkioni practice, or former Hykimi retaining some of their naturalist magic but adopting theistic (Theyalan, to be exact) worship in the First Age.
The cultures or pantheons labeled theistic by the God Learners were the Merman pantheon, the Solar (Yelm) pantheon, and the Theyalan pantheon. Of these, they goofed up most of the Theyalan and part of the Merman myths.
> My complaints about the sorcerer-priests is that they do not
> appear to be offering the people they officiate over a far
> crack of the whip. At least the Rune Cults do offer magic
> to the common man at a reasonable cost.
So do the Malkioni churches of the Hrestoli and the Stygian sects. Jonatings and Carmanians have a theistic lower class of peasants with magic of their own, but they teach to willing students. I don't know enough about Boristi or Galvosti, but I assume they are similar. The Vadeli freely teach sorcery. The exceptions are the Rokari (whose doctrine was spread in an imperialistic campaign by Bailifes the Hammer throughout Seshnela and western Safelster) and their example, the Brithini.
> The average farmer for example might be able to purchase
> a Battle Magic spell which is actually applicable to his
> daily life in a flexible manner. Prehaps a reason for
> the Sorcerer-Priests is partially to stop the spread of
> cheap Battle Magic which devalues sorcerous training.
In Hrestoli society, the same is true for low sorcery spells. Treat Wounds is about as flexible as is Heal... I don't see how spirit magic devaluates sorcerous training. The eastern sects encourage their low class populace to learn spirit magic, possiby to release their wizards from parts of their clerical duty. The Rokari (and worse, the Ramalians) have no inteest in magical prowess of the low classes at all - peasants knowing sorcery are about as popular as are full priests of Lodril in Peloria (only full priests of Lodril may perform the rebellion ritual).
> In fact I feel the cost is too reasonable. There has to be
> a catch, a hidden rake-back that people do not talk about
> in public. This why I have no objections to accepting a
> darker side to the Rune Cults.
The cost for a point of cult spirit magic is 50 L in RQ3. This is two weeks' income for the average farmer. Note: Two weeks' income to spare, which will take quite a few seasons to lay aside. And then little Argrath needs a pair of new boots, and Kallyr's dowry needs to be collected.
> Joerg mentions the size of the Invisible God's cult but
> this does not guarantee that this cult is authentic. The
> history of Glorantha is full of cyclic expansion and
> contractions.
This is treading dangerous ground, because the only paths laid out are the tracks of the God Learners. However, a lot of Gloranthan myths know a divine Creator entity, e.g. Ezelveztay in the Dara Happan myth. GRoY tells the legend how this Creator left the world because its existence within Creation was not possible. Instead the Celestial Court oversaw Creation, and the sequence of Elements ruled the world.
The Malkioni state that when all the elements (Darkness, Water, Earth, Sky and Air, possibly plus chaos, although that's no element) were present, Malkion, descendant of a Storm God and a naiad, had the revelation of Solace which helped his people through the Darkness. Hrestol had a revelation from Malkion how to treat Death and Solace within Time. The Return to Rightness Crusade in the early Second Age spread the true doctrine of the Invisible God among the continental Malkioni and destroyed Arkat's Dark (=Stygian) Empire.
These are the facts beyond even God Learner interaction.
I have assumed for the Aeolians that they worship a trinity (three corners of the Law Rune) of the Creator, the Spirit of the World, and Creator born into Creation. Their philosophers equate these with the Invisible God, Glorantha - Ginna Jar - Arachne Solara, and Orlanth Lightbringer. These identifications will have been influenced to some degree by the God Learners, but at least the Return to Rightness Crusaders never came into the Shadowlands. The Aeolians "know" they worship a divine entity beyond Creation, plus its incarnation(s) within Creation (in Godtime ot the Gods' plane respectively).
> Prehaps the salvation of the Orlanthi will be the
> mobilization of the lands of the Invisible God once the
> insubstanciality and as well as the invisibility of
> the Invisible God is exposed. Where better to recuit
> help from against the might of the Lunar Empire?
The Orlanthi have an easy way to get rid of anything they don't like: they just need to unite, and throw the damn thing off. This however is as likely as all winds blowing together to one spot, unless a special hero appears (Orlanth Lightbringer, Lokamayadon, Harmast Barefoot, Arkat, Vistikos Left-Eye, Alakoring Dragonbreaker, Argrath?).
Lack of unity is the hallmark of the Orlanthi, and their cultural identity against the threats of the surrounding cultures. Individually they are among the most powerful people to be found on Glorantha. Their magic would be well suited to combat anything to cross them.
However, whenever the Orlanthi unify their efforts, and create something great, like the three Theyalan Councils, they give up part of their identity, and weaken themselves. I don't know what a unified Barbarian Belt in the fourth Age after Argrath would develop into, but the few glimpses of the Harshax regime given in KoS persuaded me not to travel there.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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