From: Sandy Petersen (sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com)
Date: Wed 13 Apr 1994 - 07:43:23 EEST
I said:
> Vithela is where the spirits wait. When the Emperor Passes
> On, the spirits go to the next stage of existence. This place is
> unattainable and unvisitable by normal Gloranthan abilities,
> including Heroquesting. Perhaps it is Solace in Glory?
Joerg B. replies:
>You write that Vithela is unattainable and unvisitable. What hapens
>if a ship is approaching the place where Vithela is supposed to be?
>Another effect like the Syndics' Ban, or Brithos disappearance?
No no, Joerg, you misunderstood my previous statement. VITHELA is not unattainable. The NEXT STAGE OF EXISTENCE is unattainable. To clarify: if the Kralori are right, when one dies, his spirit goes to Vithela. Then, many years later, when the Emperor dies, both the Emperor, and the spirits in Vithela pack their bags and travel on to the Next Stage, whatever that is. I'm sure that next stage has a name to the Kralori, but it might be too sacred to pronounce.
It's perfectly possible to approach Vithela, and even land on the shores. However, no one does it, because "no one" who does so ever leaves again. I'm sure there's heroes, etc. who are able to depart.
The East Islanders say that the reason no one ever leaves Vithela once they go there is because it is so utterly pleasant that you can't stand to leave. So why don't they all sail there at once? Two reasons:
Reason Numba One: fear. What if the going belief is wrong? Are you sure enough about the afterlife to go to Vithela?
Reason Numba Two: It is widely known that you can only ever go to Vithela once. Even the heroes who go there and return can't go back again (maybe a superhero or god could, tho). Some priests say that if you go to Vithela when you're still alive, then when you die (still living in Vithela, supposedly), you've got to go somewhere else, and don't get to be in Vithela anymore. Heaven only knows where that somewhere else is, but it might be somewhere terrible, like the dreadful under-earth Earth Heaven, or Yelm's ever-wandering entourage that goes to Hell EVERY NIGHT! Or Orlanth's sordid never-ending orgy and feast. Better to wait for Vithela.
Speaking about Cult exclusivity:
>[protestants] _are_ exclusive even against similar faiths, like
>Jehova's witnesses, certain other sects wearing the label christian,
>and generally avoid contact with the other major christian faiths,
>Roman Catholics or Orthodox.
Yes, but to carry the parallel further than is accurate for Glorantha, think of "Protestantism" as "Theyalan", think of the Jehova's Witnesses as fringe sects like Eurmal or Molanni. Then think of the Catholics as Lunars or other non-Theyalans.
Alex Ferguson says, in reference to the cult network of Pamaltela:
>This doesn't sound different from say, Yelm or Orlanth. Do other
>cults tend to have associates that their Genertelan analogues
>wouldn't?
It's more like the Eiritha cult network which is only available at the Paps -- all sorts of little bitty "associates" or subcults who have no real worshipers (except as Horned God worship) but provide magic to the various important cults.
>Cronisper has always sounded Dayzatarish to me. Did the God
>Learners make this correspondance?
Why is Duala = Voria, you ask? Because the God Learners made the correspondence.
>Perhaps [Babeester Gor/Hondori Mal] isn't female-only in Pamaltela.
Perhaps so. But I bet male worshipers have to become Contraries or something else dreadful.
>I don't think Mastakos is `obscure', he just happens to be a de
>facto Orlanth subcult.
Point taken. Still, Jmijie is more-worshiped than Mastakos. Not only is Jmijie an associate of the King of the Gods (like Mastakos), but he also has his own strong and healthy cult (unlike Mastakos). This assumes, of course, that Jmijie isn't just Mastakos in disguise, a plausible tenet.
>How close is [Noruma] to Horned Man?
The Doraddi know all about the Horned Man. The Horned Man creates shamans. Noruma trains and teaches them. He has spells and skills useful to shamans and other magic-type people. The Doraddi consider Noruma and the Horned Man to be entirely different entities. Horned Man is more important cosmically, but Noruma is often of immediate value.
Paul Reilly sez:
>I hate to take issue with Sandy, but: Have you checked out a prison
>lately? I have friends in prison, and intra-group rape DOES seem to
>be a way to express dominance among human males
I have had friends in prison myself, and I disagree with this statement. I think that rape among humans expresses hostility, not dominance. Among animals that perform dominance "rape" (at least mounting), the animals are able to maintain a friendly relationship with one another. The lower-ranked animal sometimes even invites the superior to mount, to demonstrate friendliness and subservience. This is NOT the case among humans.
Sandy said:
>Most faiths on Earth proclaim similar acts as "good", from Muslim to
>Judaism
Paul retorts:
>Like when Yahweh orders the Jews to kill all the Canaanites in a
>town, sparing neither the women and children nor the domestic
>animals?
>Or when the Moslems exploded across the world, killing any (apart,
>theoretically, from Peoples of the Book) who would not convert?
Let's not start a pro/anti-religion thread in the Daily, huh?
In any case, your examples are pitifully bad. When's the last
time the Jews killed all the population of a town? And though lots of
guys were killed by the Moslems, they did not kill everyone who
failed to convert, though non-Moslems had to pay extra taxes.
The same Yahweh ordered "Thou Shalt Not Kill", with absolutely no weasel words restricting such murder to within the group. The Koran has similar rulings, as do other groups.
In both cases, the orders to "kill all of 'em" came direct from God. Obviously you've got to do what God orders you to do, on Earth or in Glorantha.
Pointing out lapses and horrors in various religions does not remove the fact that everyone who believes in the Bible believes that murder, theft, adultery, lying, and cheating are Wrong. Nobody rational who believes in it, whether or not they approve of the hard-to-explain-away Canaanite massacre, thinks this gives them carte blanche to wipe out cities full of unbelievers. Similar arguments can be made for other religions.
>Sorry to disagree with Sandy on a couple of points, makes me suspect
>I'm doing something wrong
Darn right. Get with the program here. ;)
Pam Carlson sensibly comments:
>It strikes me that people mainly fear sorcerers because they
>represent frightening power with no discernable alliegence or
>control.
I suppose there are Wizards who ARE part of Malkioni society, but whose job is to subjugate or combat the theists. These guys are clearly no more acceptable than the guy in the spooky tower.
To continue along this line of reasoning, I do NOT think it applies to Lunar sorcerers, whom I believe are mostly Bad Guys (this despite the fact that I am, in general, a Lunar simp). First off, the basic culture of Peloria is a theistic one. Hence, someone who becomes a sorcerer and thus abandons his Solar roots is almost certainly doing so for selfish, power-gaining reasons, rather than to Serve The Invisible God, as among the Malkioni. Second, the exceptions to this, wizards from the sorcery-using culture of the Carmanians, are Bad Guys anyway, because the Carmanians in general are not very nice people. Third, Lunar sorcerers tend to be dabblers in Chaos. And yes, Examiner, I know it's possible to deal with Chaos safely if you're a Trained Professional. But even so, these sorcerers must go rotten with some frequency. The end result: the stereotypic Lunar sorcerer is a friendless, cold-blooded, sociopath using unnatural chaos powers. I suspect most Lunars dislike these guys, let alone Theyalans.
I believe that Borists raise and breed chaotics for Tap fodder. Probably cooperate with them, too.
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