From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Thu 14 Apr 1994 - 18:43:34 EEST
Guy Robinson in X-RQ-ID: 3624
> Due to the social and non-magical ecologicial forces at work I am
> not convinced that in a more violent world the war Cults would
> soak up most of the initiates. A society can only support so many
> warriors. Reducing the number of Bless Crops available could
> mean a disaster and famine, paving the way for a terrible famine
> after a military victory.
Just like "Nobody will throw the bomb, as they think of the consequences"? Famine after an extended period of war seems to be the rule.
[Sandy:]
>> But wizard's aren't restricted in this manner. One wizard can >> cast a protective spell as well as another, or a blessing. Hence, >> wizards are more flexible than priests. If the war's over, but >> everyone's already joined Zorak Zoran, you're stuck. None of your >> Rune levels are going to be able to quit and join Flamal now that >> crops and healing are the order of the day. But all a wizard has to >> do is learn a new spell to switch emphasis.
I think this example is scoring a point against the "Rune Power" system. David Cheng, what do you say?
> I think the there are softer options than trying to convert from
> Zorak Zoran to Flamal, although this is a very impressive extreme
> I must admit. I would suggest that people would more tend to
> subscribe to Orlanth in times of war with a mind to convert to
> member of his pantheon when the conflict is over.
Looking at the admirable collection of Orlanth's spirits of retribution, I doubt anyone will even think about converting. They'd rather join a second (third, etc) friendly cult.
> Joining Orlanth on the other hand would be a sign of loyalty to
> the Orlanthi life-style, and conversion to other associated
> cults could almost be a common feature of peace-time celebrations.
The examples in published material rarely mention voluntary departure from a cult. The king of the Bilini in CoT ended up in so many cults that his income must have gone to the cults almost fully.
> The same applies to the Cults. I think the mix and relative importance
> of any cults would, over time, reflect the required degrees of
> specialization needed. More worship would go to the Gods whose
> services where needed and the power of that Cult would grow.
There are examples of cults which allow both fertility and death functions (mainly Orlanth and Lodril), and such which demand a permanent change, like Gorgorma. Both Lodril and Gorgorma are feared by Dara Happan nobility for the effects they may produce in a revolt, but Lodril seconds as the worker god, so is tolerated. After all, when the Lodril rebels get what they asked for, they become tranquil again; Dendara worshippers changing to Gorgorma are lost forever, and may only be sold as slaves to unsuspecting customers. Yet Gorgorma becomes popular in times of trouble. Few people let themselves be abhorred by a a strange old man's liver diseases when enjoying their drinks.
> Individuals would be affected by social pressure. Even though the
> Orlanthi are Hill Barbarians it does not means that their
> culture is unsubtle. In fact I could argue that society bound
> together by social interactions can be far more flexible than one
> which allots people their role through a distant, or inflexible,
> authority.
Such as a feudal system? Then look at the Hrestoli, and go find me a more flexible society than theirs.
> Now in the voice I have been arguing in previously this is clearly a
> Malkioni smoke screen based on the genesis of their own God. After
> all where is Jogrampur now? (This is a rhetorical question :-)
Which I'll answer nonetheless. I think he's still worshipped in coastal Vralos, on Pamaltela, although the Silence wars did destroy a lot of that civilisation.
> As a RuneQuest referee I know that as Cult can grow in power
> from an the inauspicious start of an alledged encounter with a
> powerfull spirit by a soltairy shaman (RQ2, Black Fang
> Brotherhood) therefore it also follows that a cult can also
> be fabricated. The point that the God Learners choose cults
> shows that this approach must have advantages over sorcery.
The God Learners were hypocrites who first invented the different magical approaches, only to use all of them.
But there are a lot of cults starting out as scams, pardon, results of creative heroquesting.
> In discussing Sorcery Joerg also provides some meat to put
> on the bones of my Invisible God is Scam suggestion:
>> I have the strong suspicion that the churches of the Invisible god >> use the scattered magic emanation (not the main stream of energy) >> in their worship services to fuel or load their life vessels. Guy seems >> to suspect the same, by calling it a scam.
> This the very thing I am trying to draw attention to. If the Cult
> strengthens the God it is focused on then I suspect that the
> Malikoni religion strengthens only the magical activities of the
> Sorcerer.
Not any more than the priest who gets personal POW gains for leading a service on a high holy day. The sorcerer won't get these.
> Exactly. The Cults specialise but their specialization is enforced
> by spirits of reprisal and other methods like excommunication. Priests
> are commonly invested only after a rigourous, magic-assisted grooming
> process while in some Western cultures you can be born a Wizard.
Such as in certain Orlanthi cultures you can be born a king. A King is on many occasions the High Priest of his nation, e.g. in the Sacred Marriage which renews the bond of the people to the Earth, and ensures the low level fertility rites will succeed.
And while you are born into the wizard caste in Rokari society, there is nothing to insure you will reach your apprenticehood, or finish it alive. Being born into the wizard caste makes you eligible as a wizard, but does not make you a sorcerer.
> A specialised society of Wizards could be as defensive as the
> Maginot (sp?) line was for the French when the Germans came from
> another direction. After some retraining a rebel core of Wizards
> could attempt to destabilise a Sorcerous society, murdering the
> Combat specialists in an unexpected manner and replacing them as
> the main wielders of sorcerous combat spells.
The Carmanians had a problem the other way round when they settled in Peloria: Syranthir's warhost had brought mostly military wizards, so fertility magic was extremely hard to get. Yet they managed, and built one of the greatest empires in Gloranthan history.
A rebel core of wizards has a much better tool than murder. The wizards are clerically invested, so all they need to do is call for a synod, and declare all who disagree as heretics. Provided they aren't receiving an anathema first...
> Unless the inventor of the name is proficient with linguistic
> principles there is no way by which I can recognise whether a
> specific name is from the West of Genertalia or from Dragon
> Pass in Central Genertalia.
Writing Genertela the way you do (disregarding one of the few linguistic
features found in Gloranthan languages, the "-ela" suffix for a country),
I doubt you'd see the principle if there was one ;-)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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