From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Tue 19 Apr 1994 - 18:25:07 EEST
> Joerg:
>> Yes, all these mythological figures which DO receive worship via other
>> cults are one of the reasons why I advocate initiation into a pantheon.
> This doesn't appear to me to be an argument in favour of pantheon worship
> as opposed to associate worship.
This problem is mainly one of the urban cultures. Purely rural types living in small hamlets are well served with Orlanth the Plowman receiving some associate magic. It would even help if the village lawspeaker would be able to become a "more associated" initiate of Lhankor Lawkeeper.
The system breaks down in societies which demand specialisation, i.e. urban societies.
> As a general point, I don't think it's always the case that mythologically
> important figures receive much worship. The example of Ameratsu in Japan
> springs to mind. I'm not sure how far this is true in Glorantha, apart
> from Gods which are effectively unreachable by worship.
>> Right now I help myself with the one religion - many saints concept for >> the Aeolian church.
> Heortland isn't an area I'm very familiar with, but your ideas for the
> religion are interesting, at any rate. My own suspicion would be that
> they're not as heavily Malkionised as this: the Henotheistic Church
> doubtless has something not unlike this structure. (To wit, having
> theistic entities as Saints.)
They somewhat categorize their saints; Barntar is a divine saint, Harmast Barefoot is a mere saint.
The wizard-priesthood also serves some of the normal cults as associate priests. One of the PCs is an Odayla initiate, and I decided that a hunter cult (not for nobles, his duties are to track down and hunt predators endangering the herds, or to prepare boar-hunts for the nobility) is unlikely to use sorcery as low magic form. Another is a recent refugee from the Sambari pass region in Sartar who remains a regular Orlanth (Adventurous) initiate, but who was ministered as well by the Aeolian priesthood. Even the son of the Sun Dome Templar took part, although he completed his Yelmalio initiation with a pilgrimage to the Sartar Sun Dome temple to receive his gift and geasa.
All these are somehow associates of the Church.
>> I would have let him pass as an adult, but not as a full member of >> the clan. For one thing, he wouldn't have been included in the oath of >> allegiance ceremony to Clan and Lord after the tests, for the other thing, >> he would have remained lay member and not Associate Initiate member >> of the Aeolian Church.
> If I ask what an Associate Initiate is, will I end up frothing at the mouth?
Ony if you read this reply. <G>
(I thought there were no cases of rabies in the island kingdom...)
You become associate initiate member of the church either by joining as a youth, but not taking any patron saint/deity, with a _very_ limited choice of low sorcery and special divine spells, or by being an intiate in one of the theistic cults included as saints, see above. Right now I rule that a PC has to chose between sorcery or spirit magic as his personal magic, although I might loosen this for higher cult advancement. Since I use the playtest rules for RQ:AiG, I'll probably increase the difficulty of the later chosen form of magic and lower the spirit casting chance to POW*3 or so.
>> The day after the adulthood initiation the young men are members of >> the Aeolian Church. They may have chosen a patron Saint/Deity and even >> been tested in the appropriate skills, but they don't belong to that >> patron's subcult until they have undergone the specific rites of this >> cult on the appropriate holy day.
> At the risk of soundfing less dogmatic than usual, I would say this sort
> of cult structure (which is roughly what had been proposed by way of
> pantheon initiation) seems highly appropriate, for the kind of society
> and religion Joerg envisages in Heortland. But without the central
> importance of one deity, and the ancilliary status of the others, this
> structure would be (much, IMPO) less appropriate. For example, for the
> Old Time Polytheists of Sartar, say.
Hmm. The ordinary Sartarite will come from a clan which worships one or two preferred deities of the Orlanth Array directly, and the rest as associates. The Lismelder seem to favour Humakt alongside with Orlanth, the Gwandor Clan of the Culbrea almost exclusively worships Humakt, the Enhyl Clan of the Colymar seems to worship mainly Elmal, and Orlanth only as associate, and the Vantaros and Tovtaros tribes of the Alda-churi seem to have disposed of Orlanth as a positive figure in their myths and have Yelmalio as their main male deity (according to my impression from David Hall's article in the RQ-Con booklet). In all these cases, the other deities are mere run-alongs for the majority of the clansfolk. Unfortunately not for the clan's PCs, though...
> I still wanna know why everyone is so convinced one can't become an adult
> without becoming (some kind of) religious initiation. Readings from the
> Collected Works of He Who Is Greg, citations of convincing earthly
> parallels (specifically _not_ cases where initiation need be to one
> specific deity), or even, if the worst comes to the worst, looking up the
> RQ<Integer> rules.
RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.23
"In regions where gods are worshiped, every responsible or respectable
adult will be an initiate of a religion."
RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.24
"In communities practicing religions, it is a traditional sign of
adulthood to become an initiate of the appropriate _religion_ or cult"
(emphasis mine).
KoS p.239
"Children become adults after a formal initiation ceremony"
This is to the Clan Secrets, including one's ancestors, and _is_
religious in nature, although not necessarily cultic.
KoS p.245
"Initiates in any cult of the pantheon are the next level. This
includes almost every Orlanthi adult."
So there seem to be a few non-initiate Orlanthi adults. Kolating
shamans and their followers, for instance.
KoS p.251
"He [the chieftain] must be initiated to the clan secrets of Orlanth"
as the basest requirement for chieftainhood.
>> A Voriof initiate would be a boy who >> has reached the age of school-boy, and is receiving tasks vital to the >> community, although not difficult, like keeping the sheep.
> While I'm not going to contend one _has_ to be a shephard in order to
> worship Voriof, I believe the vast majority of his worshippers are, at
> least on an occasional basis. I dislike the idea of Voriof simply being
> a `generic stage' deity: I'm sure he has a distinct cult of his own. After
> all, Voria does, albeit a non-standard and wimpy one.
>> This stage of >> Low initiation is not restricted to one deity only, though, and a >> crafter's proto-apprentice would be considered a "Voriof initiate" as >> expression of his age group in the pantheon, even if already an advanced >> lay member of Gustbran.
> I disagree, vehemently, vociferously, and I've-gone-over-my-reasons-for-
> doing-so-ly.
Why? <innocently>
How many sheep do you expect to be kept within a town of little over
200 houses, say the size of Runegate, or Jaransbyrig (my campaign
setting)?
Jaransbyrig has about two dozen farmer-citizens who till the fields
outside the wall (actually a reinforced dike with a low palisade on
top) and are likely to keep sheep. The other people living in the town
may have some husbandry of their own, but they are unlikely to keep
sheep inside the town, not even in winter. A cow for milk for the more
prosperous citizens, a sow or two fed on the scraps from the masters'
table, and some fowl (Orlanthi are fond of eating eggs, remember?). Do
all the other town boys need another deity? Jaransbyrig is too small to
have its own city god, so this option as low initiation status remains
out. Voriof seems to be the logical solution, even if it leads to the
situation descrbed above.
> If I ever call Sandy a Nysalor-loving,
> fragment of Rakenveg's toenail fellow-traveller of the Predark, you can be
> sure it's necessary in the context of the discussion.
This is an illustrative example of a derisive address. Maybe we ought to collect some more of these colourful insults, for the common good?
Curtis Shenton in X-RQ-ID: 3694
> Has anyone ever run a campaign set in other than the Thrid Age in
> Glorantha? Glorantha history is so rich it it could be the basis of
> endless campaigns set in different periods. Personally my first two non
> third age ideas are both in the second age.
I would love to run a series of EWF era scenarios, if only to provide my Third Age campaign with locations where to dig for non-generic artifacts.
> I'd love to run or play in a campaign based on the Gbaji wars.
That's First Age. <g>
> But with the players all starting out as Illuminates within Nysalor's
> empire. Start the characters in Dorastor, which from my reading seems to
> have been a pretty nice place to live before Arkat shows up, right about
> the time Arkat gets started. So they hear news which presents Arkat as
> evil incarnate marching their way. Assuming you've got a group of good
> roleplayers dealing with the philosophical aspects to Illumination and
> with the idea that Arkat might be right would be alot of fun to play.
Especially if they travel through Dragon Pass, Kethaela and Slontos to meet this guy. They might even accompany him on the way back and watch in horror how he becomes more and more the evil he fights.
> The other campaign I'd like to try is a group of Godlearners.
[...]
> Plus to really drive the point home of just what sort of damage the
> godlearners did I'd make some large scale changes in the world that the
> PCs would be confused by. Like having a White Sun/Moon in the sky all
> the time, or Yalmol the god who stole Zorak Zoran's Darkness powers in
> the Godtime.
This reminds me of a question I have concerning moons in/over Glorantha: in what way are they different from planets? The reason I ask is that I have seen a source which titles the Southpath planets Tolat and Artia (or at least similar-sounding names) as moons. Third Age Glorantha offers two moons with virtually nothing in common which tells them apart from planets.
Or are moons stellar bodies destined to end as plateaus on the surface of the earth? <g>
While I'm stargazing: In GRoY Dendara is mentioned as a planetary deity, along with the various sons of Yelm and other worthies (like Lokarnos). Does Yelm draw a whole bunch of minor planets along on his path across the sky, obscured by his fiery presence?
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 10 Oct 2003 - 01:33:48 EEST