From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Date: Sun 24 Apr 1994 - 20:25:59 EEST
John H:
> WHAT EXACTLY IS INITIATION?
> My second point is that initiation (sometimes quite literally)
> scares or sears a new way of thinking, a new set of symbolic
> orientations (religious or moral ideas) into your head. Because of
> this, religious symbols ALWAYS take their part, whether or not
> the initiation is overtly cultic. (Our own society is one of the few
> on either world where one can realistically separate religion and
> community).
> Some netters have argued that you can be an adult without being initiated.
Why you describe above (rather well) is what I would call a clan (/tribal/cultural whatever) initiation. Everyone seems in agreement that almost all Gloranthan socities have such a custom, and that it is a requirement for adulthood.
What John doesn't address, and what the daggers are out concerning, is the role of _religious_ initiation in becoming an adult. Now, for some cultures, frinst the Pentan (Sun) tribes, they seem to be the same. Stages of Initiation and stages of age and rank are in one-to-one correspondance. But is this true of more religiously diverse social structures, such as an Orlanthi clan? I don't believe so.
> My second point is that initiation (sometimes quite literally)
> scares or sears a new way of thinking, a new set of symbolic
> orientations (religious or moral ideas) into your head. Because of
> this, religious symbols ALWAYS take their part, whether or not
> the initiation is overtly cultic.
This isn't to say it need be a religious initiation, per se, in the sense of commiting someone to worship the god(s) invoked in the process. The proposal for pantheon initiation seemed to me to be an over-literal interpretation of "Adulthood Initiation", involving bolting some of the existing mechanics for (cultic) initiation onto a quick hack to finesse qualifying for, or commiting to, a single god, simply so we can describe full clan members as religious initiates. Why bother?
> So... the 'non-abstracted interpreted-interaction heroquest-
> transformation low initiate pantheon initiation' faction? Am I a
> party of one?
For flaming purposes you're hereby lumped in with Joerg, et al. }B-)
Martin C:
> Re: Discovered Tricksters
> Greg Stafford's answer appears in the booklet coming from David
> Cheng (flogged in X-RQ-ID: 3689). It is not much like those
> proposed here. In short, a trickster needs a powerful patron to
> keep people from lynching him.
I don't believe all Tricksters have patrons: those that don't risk getting lynched (Greg says this in KoS, I think), but when was it ever a sane career option?
> Wouldn't quote marks be easier?
Gah. I hate quote marks, they get even more confusing.
> At the risk of irritating people by referring to non-published
> sources, let me point out that some expansion of the "murderer"
> aspect exists in print, and one day may be published.
There does? What more is there to say about it?
> But, if you look at page 71 of GoG, you'll see "Strike (Murderer
> aspect)." And on page 70, "a murderer" is listed as one of his
> "shapes."
We know. The issue isn't: "Is Murderer an aspect of Trickster?" but "Is Murderer an aspect of _Eurmal_."
> Re: Malkioni as analogues of Christianity or Islam
> Consider:
> ANCIENT CHRISTIANITY MALKIONI EARLY ISLAM
It's very unclear what you mean by "Ancient" Christianty here: your
answers (mostly deleted herein) don't seem consistent for any one period.
> Theology:
> Trinity (some say all single high god single high god
> equal, others not)
The Trinity isn't an `Early', or `Biblical concept'. Not all latter-day Christians believe in it either.
> church/state relations:
> separate unity unity
Christianity has been a `state' religion (off and on) since its adoption by the Roman Empire.
> I see as much similarity between Malkionism and Islam as between
> Malkionism and Christianity.
All the "???"s in your Malkionism column speak volumes: lacking a basis for direct comparison in many cases, there's lots of room for interpretation.
Alex.
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