From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Mon 25 Apr 1994 - 15:44:10 EEST
Folks, if you think we are clogging up valuabe bandwidth, I'll continue
this via private mail. Else I'll continue...
Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3792
> Joerg:
>> Associate worship is ok with me if there is one overpowering deity and >> a bunch of associates, as seems to be the case with Pamalt. It fails to >> work when the side cuts develop a dynamic of their own, and a character >> who rightfully would worship both aspects because of his position in >> the world is punished rules-wise by having to spend double amount of >> time and income.
> Twice the gain, twice the pain, say I. If two deities are worshipped
> together in an area a great deal, I think you have a point. Some local
> hack would be likely to `fix' this, I think. But if someone is doing
> this for purely personal predilictions, more fool him.
Ok, first signs of agreement here.
>> The system breaks down in societies which demand specialisation, i.e. urban
>> societies.
> Why? I don't see this is the case at all. More specialised roles surely
Yes. To live in a Sartarite city requires a threefold religious
specialisation of its citizens. First the religion of the clan and land,
generally Orlanth, in Alda Chur Yelmalio, since 1602 alternatively the
Lunar pantheon. Second one's personal professional specialisation, which
includes a cultic component in any traditional craft. At least in Germany,
although mightily obscured ever since the Reformation (1517-1530). Third
> implies more specialised worship, not more general worship.
City gods don't seem to have lay members which worship, as soon as you worship, you are acting as an initiate. Same for the country deity, Sartar. There is no organized cult except among his descendants in somewhat Daka Fal fashion, but the Orlanth Rex cult in Sartar does exactly this.
> My own hunch about Heortland would have the Malkion and theist aspects
> of worship a bit more separate than this. The Malkioni influence is
> fairly recent, and likely to be most evident in the upper echelons.
> (Cf. Norman Britain.) Hence, I'd guess the peasntry would worship
> Barntar _qua_ Barntar, Orlanth, Ernalda, with only token Western influences,
> while the nobility (and social climbers) would consider them saints, or
> ignore them.
The Malkioni influence in Heortland is twofold. The more recent Rokari incursion of Richard the Tigerhearted has not yet left a deep influence except a strong dislike, in 1620 it must have been about as popular as the Lunar religion in Sartar 1605, also 3 years after the conquest.
The older Malkioni influence stems from Arkat's crusade against Gbaji. When his expedition fleet landed at the mouth of the Creek Stream River and moved against the main force of Palangio the Iron Vrok, the Hendriki bound the occupying forces in Heortland by raids, and in my history of the land also in a bold strike which eliminated a larger Gbajian troop at the first battle of Milran. This is the root of the Aeolian Church of Heortland, popular among the Hendriki, who inherited the rule of the land from Arkat the Liberator. They merged Hrestoli believes and Orlanthi religion.
>> a regular Orlanth (Adventurous) initiate
> Hmm. Another candidate for the Americanisation Test, Inquisitor. }B-)
I try to keep my English as European as possible, but I treat some terms from American Tradetalk (English) as technical RQ terms.
> Perhaps this is sorta more "theist-flavoured" than the "usual" henothesist
> religions of Ralios. Do you invisage this distinction, too, or do you see
> Heortland and the other "Stygians" as being similar?
Ralios has all possible stages of henotheism, IMO. Otkorion would be quite similar to Heortland, while e.g. Galin might have a Malkioni religion like the Solar result of Credo, with Ehilm as a major saint.
>> You become associate initiate member of the church either by joining as >> a youth, but not taking any patron saint/deity, with a _very_ limited choice >> of low sorcery and special divine spells, or by being an intiate in one >> of the theistic cults included as saints, see above.
> Right. Isn't this what we were calling Low Initiation, before? Sounds
> like it. (Mind you, your term is not without logic.)
Yes. A low initiate in my book essentially is someone only assciated to the cults of his homeland. So the youths not having chosen a specific patron are low initiates, or associate initiates. The theistically initiated rural people, or members of other Heortland nations (called tribes in Genertela Book) are regarded as associate initiates as well if they accept the Aeolian Church as their clergy.
>> Hmm. The ordinary Sartarite will come from a clan which worships one or >> two preferred deities of the Orlanth Array directly, and the rest as >> associates.
> I think most worship more than two, and even if not, it's still a
> significantly different circumstance than a henotheistic situation,
> where for _everyone_ the IG is by the fundemental tenet of the religion
> the prime figure.
>> [...] the Vantaros and Tovtaros tribes of the >> Alda-churi seem to have disposed of Orlanth as a positive figure in >> their myths and have Yelmalio as their main male deity (according to my >> impression from David Hall's article in the RQ-Con booklet).
> My understanding is that this is something that the leadership (Ironfist
> and cronies) is trying to impose, not necessarily the situation on the
> ground.
>>> I still wanna know why everyone is so convinced one can't become an adult >>> without becoming (some kind of) religious initiation.
> Joerg quotes lots off stuff we've raked over before, much of which
> I'd previously quoted myself, and none of which actually supports his case.
> His emphasis deleted, and mine added. (Dirty trick, I know. <g>)
> RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.23
> "In regions where gods are worshiped, every _responsible or respectable_
> adult will be an initiate of a religion."
I.e. in Sartar all but Tricksters, who are as well.
> RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.24
> "In communities practicing religions, it is a _traditional sign_ of
> adulthood to become an initiate of the appropriate religion or cult"
Failing this sign, you fail the proof. Simple logic, as practised in rural communities.
> KoS p.245
> "Initiates in any cult of the pantheon are the next level. This
> includes _almost_ every Orlanthi adult."
All but the Ancestor worshippers or otherwise shamanic adherents of e.g. Umath or Kolat, in my reading. Plus single Aeolian Malkioni in Wilms Church (the name tells, really) and recently aberrant Lunar worshippers.
> KoS p.239
> "Children become adults after a formal initiation ceremony"
>> This is to the Clan Secrets, including one's ancestors, and _is_
>> religious in nature, although not necessarily cultic.
> Sez who?
Me. <g>
> What do we mean by `religious', anyway? I think you're all
> too hung up on some subconscious reflex association of the form, "Ah, it
> says "Initiation" here, therefore we gotta sack a pointa POW to, err,
> something."
>> I agree with this. There surely are a lot of Cottar adult initiates of >> Voriof in his shepherd aspect. There might be as well an aspect >> "Orlanth the Youth", possibly closely linked to the Yinkin cult, but >> that's not documented anywhere, so I chose "Voriof" to describe the >> boys who had their communion but not their initiation.
> I'm mildly confused, are we speaking of things Aeolian, or (say) Sartarite
> here? Insert, respectively, acquiescence or blustering rebuttal according
> to your answer.
> Why would someone be considered a "Voriof initiate", when they don't worship
> Voriof, and they're not an initiate in any previously known sense?
Because the cult structure is similar to that of Voria, and done in this sense. (Previously known...)
> What
> is the need for such a status, other than a (spurious, in my view) analogy
> with the structure of (say) the Yelm cult? What do we "need" Low Initiation
> for anyway, other than filling the requirement (which I don't think is at
> all absolute) for Adults to be Initiates, which is in any case inapplicable
> here as we're speaking of non-Adults?
> Surely any Orlanthi would call this person an "Apprentice [bone|red]smith",
> or an "Apprentice to Gustbran", or some other such comparatively non-God
> Learnerish term?
How much is this worth in a ceremony concerning frinst the fertilty rites for the whole commune?
>> How many sheep do you expect to be kept within a town of little over >> 200 houses, say the size of Runegate, or Jaransbyrig (my campaign >> setting)?
> Why do you ask this? Whadya mean? I'm not for a moment suggesting every
> teenage boy is a full-time shepherd.
No. But in my vision most town boys fail to be even part-time shepherds.
>> Jaransbyrig is too small to have its own city god,
> Oh? I'm inclined to think all settlements, however small, can have
> a communal spirit of some kind.
But then City God initiation is an uncertain affair, too.
> Perhaps our essential disagreement is that you're looking for a handy
> theistic peg to hang the idea of "Low Initiation" on, while I'm trying
> to stamp it out, ruthlessly. ;-/ And aren't you using the term Low
> Initiation in a confusingly different way again?
I'm just trying to show all the aspects of the term as I see it. If I confuse you, this must be my Trickster strain.
> I don't think I follow your drift. Are you suggesting that because
> Voriof "must" be worshipped, and there are too few people who'd be
> full-time shepherds, adolescents would be "co-opted" to make up the
> numbers?
Not at all. Voriof is sufficiently served by associate initiates from the cult of Ernalda, like the Paps spirits through Eiritha. Only in his other role as boyhood deity he is worshipped by boys.
In some aspects a Voriof adolescent initiate has a similar status to that of the trickster - he isn't held responsible for his deeds the way an adult is.
Astronomy:
>> The reason I >> ask is that I have seen a source which titles the Southpath planets >> Tolat and Artia (or at least similar-sounding names) as moons.
> Very weird. In terran terms, they are the text-book examples of
> planets, moreso than the Sunpath ones. (ie, they "wander" from the
> path of the sun.)
> I'm guessing the Pelorian "Lokarnos" planet is the Theyalan "Mastakos."
> Dendara left me confused too, I have to admit.
In Elder Secrets, the planet Wagon is identified with Lokarnos.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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