From: Jonas Schiott (jonas.schiott@vinga.hum.gu.se)
Date: Mon 25 Apr 1994 - 20:46:04 EEST
G. Fried:
>While I agree, obviously, that this is not the Moral Relativism Daily
>Bulletin, I think it is equally obvious that the issue of relativism has
>direct relevance for Glorantha, as someone's (sorry -- forget who! -- was it
>you even, Martin?!) excellent synopsis of a Illuminate Riddler's questions
>shows in the same issue of the Daily.
In fact, I wrote it. Thanks for the compliment.
Some comments about the 'relativistic' discussion. I don't really want to
go into _moral_ relativism, it's such a tangled issue, but I would like to
point out an alternative available for application to Glorantha.
It's called Historical Relativism. Simply put, it is the assumption that:
"The Aztecs probably had good reasons for believing what they did. Or at
least they _thought_ they had good reasons. These reasons might not make
immediate sense to us, but we shouldn't be so hasty to judge."
There is of course a stronger version, stating that we can _never_ judge an
historical agent; while this sounds perfectly reasonable to us ivory-tower
academic types, it probably sounds perfectly amoral to many others, and I
won't try to popularize it.
Taking this attitude (whichever version you prefer) towards _contemporary_
occurences, you get Cultural Relativism. This is espoused by fewer people,
as it's harder to maintain the appropriate detachment. It's much easier to
be clinical about people who have been dead for millenia.
Alex:
>> "Worship Trickster"?!? What's that? Rhetorical question - I'd say the lack
>> of bowing and scraping for some divine bully ("Dear Orlanth: oooohhh, you
>> are so big...") is a major draw for the trickster cults.
>Trickster cults are clearly theistic, so would certainly follow the usual
>pattern of Worship being available (and necessary) at all temples. And
>likely something like the usual numbers of worshippers at each shrine to
>make it "work".
I still disagree, but purely for what you might call aesthetic reasons. The idea of tricksters holding worship ceremonies offends my sensibilities. But of course, their 'ceremonies' might take the form of drunken debauches.Now, that would be _cool_. We're there, dude... I tend to ignore the rules for temple sizes whenever I possibly can. _Especially_ when it comes to shrines. I mean, take for instance a town that has shrines to all the Earth goddesses (not so uncommon in Esrolia, I would guess): this town hosts a minimum of 75 undertakers, 75 axe-murderesses, 75 amateur seismologists, 75 primitive bankers... you get the picture.
>Uh-oh, he's started talking in close-curly-braces and pipes... ;-)
>Is gu the University of Go:teborg?
Guilty as charged. I promise not to do it again. If Joerg wants an internal Scandinavian discussion, he'll have to send private mail.
>> [...] my completely irrational and prejudiced attitude towards Pamaltela.
>> I have no justification for this view, except that any place where
>> tricksters get such a raw deal is too grim for my tastes.
>You won't much like Dara Happa, then, or indeed anyplace much outside of
>the Barbarian Belt.
Well, that's partially true. I mean, I _was_ disappointed when several people were kind enough to inform me what "GRoY" stands for - just a lot of Stuffed Solar Shirts. But seriously, I think the subject matter of this discussion is getting to me: I'm starting to see everything from a trickster's viewpoint. Hope it's not permanent.
"argrath"(Martin?):
>Re: Stein Illumination
>IMHO, the Socratic method works better at exposing the
>inconsistencies and lack of grounding in people's beliefs. I got
>a lot of this in law school, but the professors always stopped
>after you had successfully argued back to first principles. But
>why do we have first principles? Why do we value consistency?
>Why am I asking so many questions?
I assume you mean that Stein does _not_ use the Socratic method, i.e.
quietly letting your opponent dig his own grave. I'll admit that the quotes
look like someone arguing fairly agressively - perhaps I should have
mentioned that to the GMs we stressed the necessity of adapting style of
argument to the specific group of players, the presentation given in the
text was just a way of explaining his theories in a
somewhat-less-dry-than-dust manner.
First principles? "Even regarding this we are sceptical." (or something :-)
>But, if you look at page 71 of GoG, you'll see "Strike (Murderer
>aspect)." And on page 70, "a murderer" is listed as one of his "shapes."
Uh, yeah, but aren't the descriptions in GoG you refer to 'Generic Trickster', not specifically Eurmal? Minor quibble, I know. Let's drop this subject.
John:
>What I'm suggesting is that rather than a test of skills - the
>explicit game model - initiation is primarily a kind of self-
>transforming heroquest.
I agree. That is, our whole group agrees. We've made a shot at running a sort of InitiationQuest, but it was much more low-key than your suggestions - the basic idea was just to pop onto the God Plane and take a look around to reaffirm your belief in things mythical. Your ideas are more drastic, which in my book makes them more interesting.
Alex:
>What John doesn't address, and what the daggers are out concerning,
>is the role of _religious_ initiation in becoming an adult.
But of course you need a religious initiation to become an adult in a theistic society. A stable (not too civilized) one, that is.
>But is this true of more religiously diverse social
>structures, such as an Orlanthi clan? I don't believe so.
This has been discussed by a lot of people in the past weeks. Suffice to say that I subscribe to the "join another cult from the Pantheon if you really must, but dammit join _something_" theory.
Jonas
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