From: Alex Ferguson (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Sun 01 May 1994 - 23:12:24 EEST
Joerg:
> Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3792
> > If two deities are worshipped
> > together in an area a great deal, I think you have a point. Some local
> > hack would be likely to `fix' this, I think.
> Ok, first signs of agreement here.
I'd made that point before, in regards my suggestions for possible Orlanthi multiple-deity (proto-)cults. Maybe I should write one of 'em sometime, to give y'all something to aim your potshots at.
> >> The system breaks down in societies which demand specialisation, i.e. urban
> >> societies.
>
> > Why? I don't see this is the case at all. More specialised roles surely
> > implies more specialised worship, not more general worship.
>
> Yes. To live in a Sartarite city requires a threefold religious
> specialisation of its citizens.
But it doesn't. Unless the Watch cast Soul Sight on people at the gate, to check if their tithes to all three cults are up to date.
> First the religion of the clan and land,
> generally Orlanth, in Alda Chur Yelmalio, since 1602 alternatively the
> Lunar pantheon.
The structures and importance of clans in cities is questionable. Persons living in towns or cities are distanced from their tribal origins, and possibly removed entirely. Hence even if full membership of your clan normally requires that you be an Orlanth initiate, this may be much less important in urbanised septs.
The Lunar religion isn't one which would facilitate a clan structure, and I think conversions are almost entirely on an individual basis.
> Second one's personal professional specialisation, which
> includes a cultic component in any traditional craft. At least in Germany,
> although mightily obscured ever since the Reformation (1517-1530).
Not every city dweller is a "professional", or an artisan, so this argument only goes so far. Also, many such cults are likely to be subcults of other, more generally important cults. Frex, the masons of Pavis are a subcult of the city god, in Sartar many will be subcults of Orlanth or Ernalda.
> Third
> the cultic connection to the city-god or sprits, and to the spirits of the
> land, Sartar for the political aspects, and the land spirits (Quivin, Grain
> Goddess) for the physical aspects.
One can live in a city without being initiated into its God, at least, I believe, in most cases. cf. "Pavis residents" in RoC. Note that requirements to remain initiated to a city god aren't very onerous, in any case.
Most city dwellers, I believe, don't join all of the above, they join whichever happens to be most important to them, personally, and possibly worshipping the others as lay members or associates.
> City gods don't seem to have lay members which worship, as soon as you
> worship, you are acting as an initiate. Same for the country deity, Sartar.
Why do you say that? Not taking GoG seriously again, are you? ;-)
> There is no organized cult except among his descendants in somewhat Daka
> Fal fashion, but the Orlanth Rex cult in Sartar does exactly this.
It does? Surely most Orlanth Rex worshippers in Sartar aren't even related to the royal bloodline?
> The Malkioni influence in Heortland is twofold. The more recent Rokari
> incursion of Richard the Tigerhearted [...]
> The older Malkioni influence stems from Arkat's crusade against Gbaji.
My understanding is that the dominant Western influence on Maniria is post-Closing. (The "Trader Princes". See G:CotHW; GB2, p46.) This seems to be very much a "top-down" influence. This timescale also corresponds roughly to the settling of the Quivins area, by people, recall, seeking to establish "old-time Orlanth worship".
> > Perhaps this is sorta more "theist-flavoured" than the "usual" henothesist
> > religions of Ralios. Do you invisage this distinction, too, or do you see
> > Heortland and the other "Stygians" as being similar?
> Ralios has all possible stages of henotheism, IMO.
> Yes. A low initiate in my book essentially is someone only assciated to the
> cults of his homeland. So the youths not having chosen a specific patron
> are low initiates, or associate initiates.
But if you're including non-Adults in this category, aren't you demurring from the proposition that being "Initiated" in this sense is a sign of adulthood, which appeared to be the original purpose of this idea? (Possibly merely another person's (or subminority's? <g>) motivation.)
> >> Hmm. The ordinary Sartarite will come from a clan which worships one or
> >> two preferred deities of the Orlanth Array directly, and the rest as
> >> associates.
> > I think most worship more than two, and even if not, it's still a
> > significantly different circumstance than a henotheistic situation,
> > where for _everyone_ the IG is by the fundemental tenet of the religion
> > the prime figure.
> The Aeolians worship the trinity of Invisible God Creator, World
> Spirit (Glorantha = Ginna Jar = Arachne Solara), and Orlanth
> Lightbringer. Of these, only Orlanth also receives cultic or saint worship.
I have my quibbles about your suggested Aeolian theology, but I'll save that for another message. (Nano-summary: God Learner!! Kill!!! <g>) But in any case, if all Aeolians worship their Trinity, my point holds good.
> The Elmali/Yelmalion Clans dissented already before the reign of Tarkalor,
> and continued to do so up to 1625. This indicates deeper roots than just
> the nobility - in Orlanthi society a foreign nobility (worshipping the
> wrong, i.e. a different deity) would have been deposed sooner rather than
> later.
Well, there were Elmal clans and tribes for some time. However, the radical pro-Solar, anti-Wind attitudes are no more recent than the Yelmalio split, and are certainly more manifest in Harvar than in the typical tribeman, some of whom still worship Orlanth.
> > RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.23
> > "In regions where gods are worshiped, every _responsible or respectable_
> > adult will be an initiate of a religion."
> I.e. in Sartar all but Tricksters, who are as well.
Eh? This is surmise, and not very self-consistent surmise either.
> > RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.24
> > "In communities practicing religions, it is a _traditional sign_ of
> > adulthood to become an initiate of the appropriate religion or cult"
> Failing this sign, you fail the proof. Simple logic, as practised in rural
> communities.
I've already said that where a _particular_ deity is worshipped throughout the community, it makes sense that cultic and adulthood initiation are seen, and practised, as one. However, this isn't true of cities, and probably not of the non-remote rural areas of a "modern" country like Sartar.
> > KoS p.245
> > "Initiates in any cult of the pantheon are the next level. This
> > includes _almost_ every Orlanthi adult."
> All but the Ancestor worshippers or otherwise shamanic adherents of e.g.
> Umath or Kolat, in my reading.
This isn't a "reading" of the text at all, however, it's quite an added level of interpretation. Consistent with, yes, evidence of, no. Does the clan elder stand up in the middle of the adulthood initiation ceremonies and reel off a lengthy list of permissable statuses for the aspirat to hold? ("Are you now, or have you ever been, an initiate of Orlanth, Barntar [...] a shamanic apprentice, or member of one of the following approved spirit cults...")
> Plus single Aeolian Malkioni in Wilms Church
> (the name tells, really)
I beleive that "kirk" is a southern Sartarite dialect term, and certainly doesn't refer to a Western-style church of any kind. (At any rate, the mentions of its founding speak of a central "temple".)
> No. The whole point of my arguments is that you get certain intitation,
> some religious intitation included, without having to sack a pointa POW.
It is? I think I need a programme to keep track of the players here. I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing, but it sounds not unlike (gasp) lay membership. An RQ2ism devoutly to be wished.
> >> I agree with this. There surely are a lot of Cottar adult initiates of
> >> Voriof in his shepherd aspect. There might be as well an aspect
> >> "Orlanth the Youth", possibly closely linked to the Yinkin cult, but
> >> that's not documented anywhere, so I chose "Voriof" to describe the
> >> boys who had their communion but not their initiation.
> > I'm mildly confused, are we speaking of things Aeolian, or (say) Sartarite
> > here? Insert, respectively, acquiescence or blustering rebuttal according
> > to your answer.
> Yes to both.
> I'm speaking of things Aeolian and Heortling here, the latter including
> Sartarite as per KoS Jalk's book.
It'd be a mistake to equate the "Heortlings" in general with the modern Heortlanders. As I say, this sounds quite plausible as a henotheistic idea, but seems rather artificial from a strictly theist viewpoint.
> > Why would someone be considered a "Voriof initiate", when they don't worship
> > Voriof, and they're not an initiate in any previously known sense?
> Because the cult structure is similar to that of Voria, and done in this
> sense. (Previously known...)
Oh, I see. I'm not sure I'd draw this exact analogy with Voria, myself. Certainly not if shepherd-boys are trundling around with actual magic. Granted this would explain your use of the term, Voria initiates cheerily ignoring all the usual meanings of the word.
> > What
> > is the need for such a status, other than a (spurious, in my view) analogy
> > with the structure of (say) the Yelm cult? What do we "need" Low Initiation
> > for anyway, other than filling the requirement (which I don't think is at
> > all absolute) for Adults to be Initiates, which is in any case inapplicable
> > here as we're speaking of non-Adults?
> Voriof is the god of boyhood, according to KoS p.50-52. If the boys are to
> participate in rituals, they'll do so as representatiives of the boyhood
> deity.
I disagree. Some boys who've never seen the business end of a sheep will worship Voriof, but I don't think it will be remotely universal. If a child has some clearer, less generic religious path to follow, they'll suely do so in preference.
> > Surely any Orlanthi would call this person an "Apprentice [bone|red]smith",
> > or an "Apprentice to Gustbran", or some other such comparatively non-God
> > Learnerish term?
> How much is this worth in a ceremony concerning frinst the fertilty rites
> for the whole commune?
> No. But in my vision most town boys fail to be even part-time shepherds.
Perhaps not, depending on the town. If sheparding isn't locally important, the importance of Voriof, and the traditional association of him to male non-Adults, is likely to be accordingly reduced.
> Sure they have the spirit of the founder, and a few other minor local
> saints or spirits. Only you don't get initiated to such spirits.
Joining a spirit cult is effectively becoming an Initiate to that spirit, in all but name.
Alex.
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