From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Tue 03 May 1994 - 10:10:00 EEST
Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3868
> I'd made that point before, in regards my suggestions for possible
> Orlanthi multiple-deity (proto-)cults. Maybe I should write one of
> 'em sometime, to give y'all something to aim your potshots at.
You should. Every little bit of additional info helps.
>> Yes. To live in a Sartarite city requires a threefold religious >> specialisation of its citizens.
> But it doesn't. Unless the Watch cast Soul Sight on people at the gate,
> to check if their tithes to all three cults are up to date.
> The structures and importance of clans in cities is questionable.
> Persons living in towns or cities are distanced from their tribal
> origins, and possibly removed entirely. Hence even if full membership
> of your clan normally requires that you be an Orlanth initiate, this
> may be much less important in urbanised septs.
I happen to know a bit detail info on Jonstown, from the united efforts of a group of friends in contact with Greg and AH. The picture drawn for Pavis Outside the Wall quarters is even more true for the small Sartarite cities. The clans are at least as important as the city guild, even under Lunar occupation. The tribal kings hold court there at least part of the time, and all the clans have their houses there, just like the tribes have in Boldhome. With this presence their tribal and clannish origins tend to push themselves into their consciousness.
> The Lunar religion isn't one which would facilitate a clan structure,
> and I think conversions are almost entirely on an individual basis.
>> Second one's personal professional specialisation, which >> includes a cultic component in any traditional craft. At least in Germany, >> although mightily obscured ever since the Reformation (1517-1530).
> Not every city dweller is a "professional", or an artisan, so this
> argument only goes so far. Also, many such cults are likely to be
> subcults of other, more generally important cults. Frex, the masons
> of Pavis are a subcult of the city god, in Sartar many will be subcults
> of Orlanth or Ernalda.
>> Third >> the cultic connection to the city-god or sprits, and to the spirits of the >> land, Sartar for the political aspects, and the land spirits (Quivin, Grain >> Goddess) for the physical aspects.
> One can live in a city without being initiated into its God, at least,
> I believe, in most cases.
You cannot live in a city for long and exclude yourself from social activities in a pre-industrial society. Griselda is a good example of this - at first she is an outlaw, barely avoiding being cast out of town (which she manages in the chart caper), then she seeks out the protection of Pavis initiation.
> Most city dwellers, I believe, don't join all of the above, they join
> whichever happens to be most important to them, personally, and possibly
> worshipping the others as lay members or associates.
>> City gods don't seem to have lay members which worship, as soon as you >> worship, you are acting as an initiate. Same for the country deity, Sartar.
> Why do you say that? Not taking GoG seriously again, are you? ;-)
>> There is no organized cult except among his descendants in somewhat Daka >> Fal fashion, but the Orlanth Rex cult in Sartar does exactly this.
> It does? Surely most Orlanth Rex worshippers in Sartar aren't even
> related to the royal bloodline?
Kallyr Starbrow, queen of the Kheldon, and Harvar Ironfist, Duke of the Vantaros, are only two examples of suddenly surfaced kinspersons of Sartar, however distant, in chieftain position. I'd guess that a good part of Sartarite nobility will have some drops of royal blood, if only through females (which counts little, according to John Hughes' kinship article in Tales 11).
>> The Malkioni influence in Heortland is twofold. The more recent Rokari >> incursion of Richard the Tigerhearted [...] >> The older Malkioni influence stems from Arkat's crusade against Gbaji.
> My understanding is that the dominant Western influence on Maniria is
> post-Closing. (The "Trader Princes". See G:CotHW; GB2, p46.)
That's the western part of Maniria, west of Esrolia. For the Holy Country, we are in the lucky position to have the RQC description, which tells us that the Hendriki inherited the rule over Heortland from him. In my opinion they adopted knighthood and related concepts (early Hrestoli knight-wizards, as described in CoT for Arkat's studies under Gerlant Flamesword) from Arkat and his companions (p.24). At the battle of the Travelling Stone Arkat still was human, and inspired his human followers (Griffin Mountain p.6). I'm certain the Hendriki were part of his host, and fought alongside Ralian Orlanthi and Seshnegi Hrestoli. Afterwards Arkat ordered gouvernment for the Holy Country before he took a year off to be reborn as a mistress race troll (RQC p.18: "Arkat was no conqueror amd tried to leave behind a stable government everyplace he went, to ensure continued cooperation in wiping out the last dregs of chaos inevitagly remaining.") On this heroquest, only six boon companions accompanied him; Troll Gods names them as mace-bearer, shield-bearer, singer, pebble-bearer, grey sister, other ears, and prayer-maker (anyone counting? I got to seven...). However, in his host there still were companions from his early exploits, started from Seshnela, still accompanied him into Peloria (CoT p.18: "His western allies dwindled"). His western allies must have stayed with his local allies, who were mainly Storm- or Earth-worshipping Theyalans. Since the Hendriki had distinguished themselves against the Iron Vrok, they will have hosted some of the most noble of Arkat's companions, and will have had a year of strong western influence in their homes. These westerners had in all probability already accepted the "pagan" ways, and would have exchanged spiritual as well as technical (martial) values.
I think the very year of Arkat's betrayal could have seen the birth of the Aeolian church. The Kitori temple of Black Arkat logically was a result of Arkat's species-change, but is another late First Age influence of Malkioni in Heortland, albeit quite drastically changed.
> This
> seems to be very much a "top-down" influence. This timescale also
> corresponds roughly to the settling of the Quivins area, by people,
> recall, seeking to establish "old-time Orlanth worship".
This would apply to the Colymar, who are said to come from Esrolia (or Ditali lands?) in CHDP. Only in the Colymar-written Colymar Book the tenuous connection to the very clan King Sartar descended from, the Orshanti from around Solthi River, was constructed. This latter source is about as reliable as the Mercian court-historian who (re-?) constructed the royal bloodline back to a proven descendant of Wotan/Odin...
We know little about the actual history of Heortland (or the Holy Country in general) throughout the early Third Age, except the contacts into Dragon Pass. The northward migration coincides with Belintar's arrival and struggle for dominance (1318 Belintar deposed the Only Old One, around 1320 the unfortified Colymar village was razed (KoS p.131). Random coincidence?). The Colymar Book states that the Malani wars (Zarran War, KoS p.203) started around 1325 and lasted well into 1360.
The migration and landtaking most probably was not an affair of directed settlement. More likely the migrating clans and tribes temporarily settled in one place, replenished their grain by a year or two of farming, and then moved on. From the account in the Colymar Book, that's what the Malani did.
I imagine that the emigrants from Heortland fell victim to a vigorous and ambitious Hendriki king who used the general upheaval to enlarge the direct influence of his nation against the traditonal (and traditionally disunited) Orlanthi tribes aloong his border. The capture of Refuge by Hendriki forces and the construction of its keep would fall into this time as well (I refer to the French article on Refuge which reinterprets Sanctuary history in Gloranthan context).
> Perhaps I should have asked a more
> clearly-defined question, such as "Is it [the Aeolian Church]
> similar to the doctrine of the Henotheist Church [of Otkorion]?"
As far as I am concerned, yes, it is. The main differences would be the local saints/heroes included in its worship - no Bretwalda (=Pharaoh), Dormal or King Heort worship in Otkorion, and no Siglolf Cloudcrusher in Heortland. Nor would the Hendriki nobility, interwoven with Heortland's church history, have its parallel in the more recent kingdom of Otkorion. Otherwise, if travel was eaysier and the times more quiet, a fruitful clerical interchange would be possible.
>> Yes. A low initiate in my book essentially is someone only assciated to the >> cults of his homeland. So the youths not having chosen a specific patron >> are low initiates, or associate initiates.
> But if you're including non-Adults in this category, aren't you demurring
> from the proposition that being "Initiated" in this sense is a sign of
> adulthood, which appeared to be the original purpose of this idea?
> (Possibly merely another person's (or subminority's? <g>) motivation.)
"Everyone involved would see the difference, it's obvious."
Non adult Vori<a/of> "initiates" ave yet to form their personal spiritual links to the pantheon and the patron deity of their choice, the one expressed in the "sacrifice a point of POW" mechanic. They are one special case of lay members, in that they take a limited active role e.g. in the Sacred Time short Lightbringers' Quest. They are witnesses to the Preparation and Departure, but their really important role is in the Alone in Hell episode, where their support is as essential as that of the adults. (Did this originally happen parallel to the I Fought We Won myth?)
>> The Aeolians worship the trinity of Invisible God Creator, World >> Spirit (Glorantha = Ginna Jar = Arachne Solara), and Orlanth >> Lightbringer. Of these, only Orlanth also receives cultic or saint worship.
> I have my quibbles about your suggested Aeolian theology, but I'll save
> that for another message. (Nano-summary: God Learner!! Kill!!! <g>)
> But in any case, if all Aeolians worship their Trinity, my point holds
> good.
They all say so in the credo their wizards/priests taught them. I doubt that many would seriously reflect on the implications of this tradition. Those who do are likely to have at least some degree of clerical investment.
> Well, there were Elmal clans and tribes for some time. However, the
> radical pro-Solar, anti-Wind attitudes are no more recent than the
> Yelmalio split, and are certainly more manifest in Harvar than in the
> typical tribeman, some of whom still worship Orlanth.
I never said that the Elmali were anti-Wind, but they would follow an Elmal chief thane, not an Orlanth chieftain IMO. The sacred marriage with the land for instance would be Elmal's duty rather than Orlanth's in these clans and tribes, and rather than to celebrate the short LBQ in Sacred Time I'd expect them to reenact I Fought We Won, and the other events on the Surface World during the LBQ. They would probably join the other Vingkotlings in Luathela when Orlanth summons the Eternal Ring of the Vingkotlings, but return to the stead after helping their king through the gates.
>>> RQ3 DeLuxe, Magic Book, p.24 >>> "In communities practicing religions, it is a _traditional sign_ of >>> adulthood to become an initiate of the appropriate religion or cult"
> I've already said that where a _particular_ deity is worshipped throughout
> the community, it makes sense that cultic and adulthood initiation are
> seen, and practised, as one. However, this isn't true of cities, and
> probably not of the non-remote rural areas of a "modern" country like
> Sartar.
The only Sartarite city to qualify before Dara Happans or Esrolites is Boldhome, with approximately 10 to 12 thousand citizens (depending on whether you count the non-humans). Of the other six Sartarite cities, Alda-chur is the only candidate to exceed 3000 inhabitants. On the RQC Holy Country Map, Duck Point, Wilms Church and Swenstown are depicted by the symbol for cities with 1100 to 2500 inhabitants, while Boldhome seems to have a square symbol (hard to discern but for the right edge, the rest being blackened by the Quivin Mountain ink blot) denoting a city with 7500 to 12500 inhabitants. This somewhat agrees with the description of Boldhome in KoS (and A Rough Guide to Boldhome).
> This isn't a "reading" of the text at all, however, it's quite an added
> level of interpretation.
Not more so than your misquoting my quotes of published info <still grudging> <G>.
> Consistent with, yes, evidence of, no. Does
> the clan elder stand up in the middle of the adulthood initiation
> ceremonies and reel off a lengthy list of permissable statuses for the
> aspirat to hold? ("Are you now, or have you ever been, an initiate of
> Orlanth, Barntar [...] a shamanic apprentice, or member of one of the
> following approved spirit cults...")
Of course not - if any participant was, he'd already be an adult <g evilly>.
>> Plus single Aeolian Malkioni in Wilms Church >> (the name tells, really)
> I beleive that "kirk" is a southern Sartarite dialect term, and certainly
> doesn't refer to a Western-style church of any kind. (At any rate, the
> mentions of its founding speak of a central "temple".)
Which doesn't disagree with a "Stygian" Malkioni place of worship. Remember, I say that Sartar was a wizard, who apart from his mastery of the Mobility Rune (whatever that means) knew a bunch of Shapechange and Form/Set spells.
>> No. The whole point of my arguments is that you get certain intitation, >> some religious intitation included, without having to sack a pointa POW.
> It is? I think I need a programme to keep track of the players here.
> I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing, but it sounds not unlike
> (gasp) lay membership. An RQ2ism devoutly to be wished.
> It'd be a mistake to equate the "Heortlings" in general with the modern
> Heortlanders. As I say, this sounds quite plausible as a henotheistic
> idea, but seems rather artificial from a strictly theist viewpoint.
Ok. By Heortlings I mean the theist Orlanthi of eastern and northern Maniria, in Heortland as well as in Sartar. The collective noun for most of the Aeolians in Heortland is Hendriki, and for most of the Stygian Arkati is Kitori. There are exceptions, but too few to really matter.
A country ruled by a dynasty of wizards (descendants of Sartar) is not so strictly theist IMO.
>> Voriof is the god of boyhood, according to KoS p.50-52. If the boys are to >> participate in rituals, they'll do so as representatiives of the boyhood >> deity.
> I disagree. Some boys who've never seen the business end of a sheep will
> worship Voriof, but I don't think it will be remotely universal. If a
> child has some clearer, less generic religious path to follow, they'll
> surely do so in preference.
The boys may participate frinst in the role of the children of the stead who must be saved by the Wind Lord from hostage with say the bad swine people (if the Arrowmound legend is reenacted). In this role, also the smith's apprentice and the (very) junior aspiring scribe are tossed into the mass of somewhat reliable children for dramatic effect.
(I do play in Glorantha as a constantly imminent heroquest for the characters to enter, mostly unwittingly. Time _is_ cyclical, although these cycles needn't be regular.)
> How much is a Voriof initiate (using your envisaged
> scheme) worth [in a collective Fertility rite]? Prolly not a lot.
>> No. But in my vision most town boys fail to be even part-time shepherds.
> Perhaps not, depending on the town. If sheparding isn't locally important,
> the importance of Voriof, and the traditional association of him to male
> non-Adults, is likely to be accordingly reduced.
From the town size as discussed above, rural live will be close enough for all Sartarites (except from Boldhome) to watch, although not necessarily to participate. Voriof as the god of shepherds would be close enough.
>> Sure they have the spirit of the founder, and a few other minor local >> saints or spirits. Only you don't get initiated to such spirits.
> Joining a spirit cult is effectively becoming an Initiate to that spirit,
> in all but name.
and in X-RQ-ID: 3871:
> Joerg:
>> Simply say that the initiation into adulthood gives you an all-associate >> status, and costs one POW, and that you're expected to join a specific >> cult appropriate to your function, for the same point of POW.
> You have me truly confused now, Joerg. Didn't you just say (in the other
> message I replied to today) that you were proposing that adulthood
> initiation _wouldn't_ involve POW sacrifice?
Adulthood initiation wouldn't, the basic religious initiation would involve POW sacrifice (once). I only went along Loren's point of view that both coincide for all (Orlanthi-all, i.e. between 85% and 100%) members of the society.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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