From: Alex Ferguson (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Fri 06 May 1994 - 00:04:13 EEST
Joerg, X-RQ-ID: 3884
> Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3868
> > Maybe I should write one of
> > 'em sometime, to give y'all something to aim your potshots at.
> You should. Every little bit of additional info helps.
Okay, I semi-resolve to do so. Don't hold your collective breaths, though. Note the cult I had in mind was what Joerg would call a "Voriof Initiate" type cult, which may be getting us off the point of adulthood induction. Such as it was.
Huh, "little", indeed. Hrmph! (<g>)
> Not just the tithes, more important are the temple duty time requirements
> a member of three cults would have to serve.
I don't know about "more important", but yes, that too. I agree that someone joining three, distinct cults, with separate "costs" for each, particularly city-dwellers -- a notoriously impious, back-sliding lot likely to fall into complete apostacy if one doesn't keep a damn close eye on 'em -- isn't very likely, and certainly shouldn't be presented as the "norm", much less a requirement.
> > The structures and importance of clans in cities is questionable.
> > Persons living in towns or cities are distanced from their tribal
> > origins, and possibly removed entirely. Hence even if full membership
> > of your clan normally requires that you be an Orlanth initiate, this
> > may be much less important in urbanised septs.
> I happen to know a bit detail info on Jonstown, from the united
> efforts of a group of friends in contact with Greg and AH.
Post! Post!!
> The picture
> drawn for Pavis Outside the Wall quarters is even more true for
> the small Sartarite cities. The clans are at least as important as
> the city guild, even under Lunar occupation.
Sure: there's going to be a "trade-off" between the relative importance of the clan, and the city: whose social organisation prevails, and to what extent.
> > The Lunar religion isn't one which would facilitate a clan structure,
> > and I think conversions are almost entirely on an individual basis.
> Hmm. Convert the chieftain, and you will have converted a considerable
> part ofhis hirdmen. Maybe not all - check the influence of christianity
> at Gorm the Old's court in 10th century Denmark, and the dissenters under
> his son Svein Forkbeard.
Yes, some individuals are likely to have a cascade effect, granted, but my thrust is that, where one starts with a clan in which all adult males must be initiated to Orlanth, you can't really replace this in one fell swoop by one where all adult males must be initiated into the Seven Mothers. For one thing the Lunar religion doesn't _have_ any particular clan structure to impose on people, and isn't philosophically inclined to do so anyway. This means they can either let the usual initiation process proceed unhindered (and they do so in the case of initiation to "safe" gods such as Ernalda), or they can simply _stop_ them, and/or eliminate the specifically cultic part, thereby breaking the traditional link between cult and clan. This leaves them free to try to convert the people concerned at a later date.
> > Not every city dweller is a "professional", or an artisan, so this
> > argument only goes so far. Also, many such cults are likely to be
> > subcults of other, more generally important cults. Frex, the masons
> > of Pavis are a subcult of the city god, in Sartar many will be subcults
> > of Orlanth or Ernalda.
> If there is one intitiation to all the aspects of life, then all
> are subcults - that's cultural initiation for you.
I think my antecedent is more likely than yours, somehow. Doesn't it seem reasonable that where a city god is strong, particular crafts associated with that city, especially when organised into "City Guilds", should be regarded as subcults of the city god? I don't think this is "everything is a subcult of everything else" type argument. At least I hope not, since I believe it to be the wrong way to think of (distinct) cults.
> > One can live in a city without being initiated into its God, at least,
> > I believe, in most cases.
> You cannot live in a city for long and exclude yourself from social
> activities in a pre-industrial society.
I don't think this means "become an initiate or get out", though.
> > Most city dwellers, I believe, don't join all of the above, they join
> > whichever happens to be most important to them, personally, and possibly
> > worshipping the others as lay members or associates.
> As associates.
And why not as lay members? You yourself have argued that city gods are sometimes rather weak affairs, so why even should membership be compulsory?
> We come together, if slowly. I would differentiate
> between various forms of associate initiates, though.
> No, but CoP. The Pavis cult procession is ignored by the lay Pavisites
> (like Biturian) until the priest casts a powerful City Harmony. What
> happens thereafter is mainly the effect of the spell.
Pavis Lay members _must_ worship (on seasonal Holy Days, at least), according to the body of the CoP text.
> > It does? Surely most Orlanth Rex worshippers in Sartar aren't even
> > related to the royal bloodline?
> Kallyr Starbrow, queen of the Kheldon, and Harvar Ironfist, Duke of the
> Vantaros, are only two examples of suddenly surfaced kinspersons of
> Sartar, however distant, in chieftain position.
> > Perhaps I should have asked a more
> > clearly-defined question, such as "Is it [the Aeolian Church]
> > similar to the doctrine of the Henotheist Church [of Otkorion]?"
> As far as I am concerned, yes, it is.
Okay. My picture is of less Malkioni influence, and correspondingly a less prevalent role for the IG in Heortland. De gustibus, n'awrat.
> > I have my quibbles about your suggested Aeolian theology, but I'll save
> > that for another message. (Nano-summary: God Learner!! Kill!!! <g>)
> This is the old and sad confusion people have ever since the Dark Empire
> fell to the Return to Rightess fanatics misled by the Jrusteli God
> Learners. This (early) Arkati creed is without doubt pre-God Learner,
> and therefore neglects their separation of distinct magic systems. <g>
> > But in any case, if all Aeolians worship their Trinity, my point holds
> > good.
> They all say so in the credo their wizards/priests taught them. I doubt
> that many would seriously reflect on the implications of this tradition.
> I never said that the Elmali were anti-Wind
You said Orlanth was, or was becoming "not a positive role-model", I think.
> [...] The sacred marriage with
> the land for instance would be Elmal's duty rather than Orlanth's in these
> clans and tribes, and rather than to celebrate the short LBQ in Sacred Time
> I'd expect them to reenact I Fought We Won, and the other events on the
> Surface World during the LBQ. [...]
> > I've already said that where a _particular_ deity is worshipped throughout
> > the community, it makes sense that cultic and adulthood initiation are
> > seen, and practised, as one. However, this isn't true of cities, and
> > probably not of the non-remote rural areas of a "modern" country like
> > Sartar.
> The only Sartarite city to qualify before Dara Happans or Esrolites is
> Boldhome, with approximately 10 to 12 thousand citizens (depending on
> whether you count the non-humans).
> > This isn't a "reading" of the text at all, however, it's quite an added
> > level of interpretation.
> Not more so than your misquoting my quotes of published info <still
> grudging> <G>.
For the most part, I'm _not_ trying to put a specific interpretation on the material of KoS, since really, it's too vague to admit such. Or so vague as to admit any number, if you prefer. My "misquoting" (aka reemphasis) wasn't intended to argue for any particular alternative position, but to point out the dearth of firm, inarguable evidence. If we're going to take KoS as the definitive source, we my have to resort to appealing for Greggly Divination as to what he _meant_ by these oft- quoted passages.
> > ("Are you now, or have you ever been, an initiate of
> > Orlanth, Barntar [...] a shamanic apprentice, or member of one of the
> > following approved spirit cults...")
> Of course not - if any participant was, he'd already be an adult <g evilly>.
Eh, yeah, well substitute "about to become", depending on what part of the ceremony you reckon we're at. So, we're going to haul the bad-tempered old kolating out of his tree (physically or metaphorically) to perform shamanic apprenticeship rituals in the middle of the clan's initiation ceremony? I delegate Joerg to go fetch (no pun intended -- no, really!) him. ;-)
> > It is? I think I need a programme to keep track of the players here.
> > I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing, but it sounds not unlike
> > (gasp) lay membership. An RQ2ism devoutly to be wished.
> If your idea of lay membership is more powerful than mine, I can see
> clouds on the horizon <denoting something good>. I would rule that to
> spiritually benefit e.g. from a pilgrimage or a major religious festival
> otherwise than a warm feeling one needs to be initiated to some degree. A
> lay member may look on, get drunk and satiated, and dally with the girls
> in full ornament, but that's about it.
> A country ruled by a dynasty of wizards (descendants of Sartar) is not so
> strictly theist IMO.
Gah. Well, I'm sure you mean "sorceror" not "wizard", for one thing. Sartar was a Hero: that he displays unusual magic is not be remarked on with suspicion. I see no reason to definitely conclude that his magics were sorcerous, much less that his descendants manifested such powers. However, if it winds up your players, more power to you. ;-)
> > Joining a spirit cult is effectively becoming an Initiate to that spirit,
> > in all but name.
> Towns like Runegate did not have one town spirit, but a host of them (all
> crushed by the Bat). To which one of them would a citizen be initiated?
Runegate I must plead ignorance of, but I can easily believe this to be the case. Are these various spirits associated with each district, with different clans, or what? Recall that I'm the person who's suggesting that (cultic/pantheonic) Initiation may _not_ be "compulsory" before persuing this logic in that context.
Obviously, some such spirits are pretty feeble. Pavis is a comparatively powerful one, I believe, even for a city of that size. I think there are very few which are the "traditional cults of adulthood", perhaps the Tripolis deities being the most likely candidates. I also suspect that the "costs" of membership vary with the importance, too.
> and in X-RQ-ID: 3871:
> > Joerg:
> > You have me truly confused now, Joerg. Didn't you just say (in the other
> > message I replied to today) that you were proposing that adulthood
> > initiation _wouldn't_ involve POW sacrifice?
> Adulthood initiation wouldn't, the basic religious initiation would
> involve POW sacrifice (once).
> I only went along Loren's point of view
> that both coincide for all (Orlanthi-all, i.e. between 85% and 100%)
> members of the society.
True. It's the (0-)15% that're troublesome, though.
Alex the Troubled.
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