From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Thu 05 May 1994 - 10:24:08 EEST
Paul Reilly in X-RQ-ID: 3891
>> I think the Man rune means two-arms-two-legs-and-a-brainy-head - Sapience >> plus a humanoid shape.
On my non-Gloranthan game world I assumed that possession of the Man Rune made interbreeding possible, although in cases with very different biology/ancestry only with magical help.
> I disagree about trolls being mammals per se. I don't think they are
> descended from Mother Mammal - rather I think that the original Uz were
> formless darkness beings in the Underworld.
Neither are the humans descendants of Mother Mammal, not on Glorantha. You might argue that most Hsunchen are (at least by adoption), but e.g. the Agimori have no bestial ancestry whatever.
> They were not forced to take
> particular shapes until exposed to Yelm's light (when he went to the
> Underworld.)
I disagree: They interacted with other races long before Yelm was slain. How would Gash and Gore have known their path to the surface world had they not traveled it in the shape they had on their exodus? Also remember the troll family tree in Uz Lore.
> Like other darkness creatures, Uz could practice
> eating-and-becoming: eating something to take on its shape and properties.
Hmm. This sort of shape change is related to Triolina in GoG. In the cases where darkness creatures devour someone (e.g. Bagog's ritual of rebirth) they dictate their form to the subject devoured. Kyger Litor's ritual is similar, but involves no eating.
> I think Kyger Litor learned the Man shape, probably by eating Grandfather
> Mortal or his body, or a portion thereof. Texts say she 'mated with' the
> Man Rune, but Primal Darkness mating is pretty indistinguishable from
> eating: they bite hunks off of each other.
Other texts say that the various existing realms took the form runes and toyed around with them. In a lot of myths it is said that Trickster knew the secret of making men, and that he shared his secret with various deities.
> Thus I think while Uz have the Man shape, they are basically QUITE
> different and have more common ancestry with the insects, bats, Dehori,
> and other darkness creatures than with Man as such.
Bats I agree with - they are descended from shrews as well. (Although this would question whether Bat Hsunchen are mammals <g>.) As far as I know the shrews are the most primitive form of mammals, so they are a likely point in an evolutionary tree for strange forms to branch off. Certainly the trolls possess an endoskeleton, blood circulation system etc that classes them with amphibians, reptiles, mammals and birds, not with insects.
I find the equation of all insect life = darkness doubtful even for Glorantha. The timinits surely aren't darkness creatures the way bats or trolls are. Bees and wasps have too many solar functions to really qualify. Moths and maggots behave like darkness creatures, so let them be such.
The troll-insect relation mostly depends on "you are what you eat". What is a troll living on a Mostali diet then?
> Similar origin applies to the Dark Elves - when plants invaded the
> Underworld, Mee Vorala ate them from the inside and stole their shape.
> Hence Mee Vorala's friendliness with Uz and wars with Flamal's children.
Strange. Most molds and mushrooms eat themselves into the plant (or its decaying remnants) from the outside.
Mee Vorala's friendliness with Uz is that of a piece of chattel to its herder. If she or her subjects developed uppity, they'd have to face the consequences.
If possible, I'd assign an inverted Plant Rune to Mee Vorala rather than the normal Plant Rune.
> I like the idea of trolls feeding blood to their children (that is
> enriched blood rather than enriched sweat.) Seems much more
> Darkness like.
Rather let some lymph liquid end there.
> Sandy writes:
>> DWARF BIOLOGY SPECULATIONS >> So, what ARE the dwarfs? Many folks claim they're just "constructs",
> Note that Dwarfs do have some evidence for their claim that they know
> how to construct creatures - nilmergs and jolanti, for example. And they
> can make working metal limbs for humans (Arazban (sp?) & Count Alehandro)
Like the famous iron hand for Goetz von Berlichingen, or a living limb (like in Moorcock's Corum Saga)?
>> The dwarf mythology claims that the Mostali made other >> Mostali, and ultimately made the dwarfs themselves, presumably >> through the test-tube technique. I don't think there's very large >> physical differences (at least initially) between dwarfs of different >> castes. The whole mythology seems to make the point that dwarfs were
> I can go with this: a single base type, cheap and self-reproducing, to
> help the Mostali with their tasks. Modifications can be added later as
> necessary.
Yes. They are Clay Mostali, the tenth form, after all.
> I do think that adult Irondwarfs will have iron skeletons, etc., even
> if these are installed later as you say. Perhaps when they reach full size
> their bones are replaced? I think the old Mostali certainly had metal
> skeletons of the appropriate type.
I would make this later installation an enrichment in their bones rather than a complete exchange. And since trolls like to devour the dwarfs they have combated (most likely Iron Dwarfs), bones and all, I am doubting this theory a bit. The appropriate ore, yes, the metal, hmmm.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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