From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Mon 09 May 1994 - 00:39:38 EEST
> For one thing the Lunar religion doesn't _have_ any particular
Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3924
> to do so anyway. This means they can either let the usual initiation
> process proceed unhindered (and they do so in the case of initiation to
> "safe" gods such as Ernalda), or they can simply _stop_ them, and/or
> eliminate the specifically cultic part, thereby breaking the traditional
> link between cult and clan. This leaves them free to try to convert
> the people concerned at a later date.
Lunar religion and civilisation is heavily influenced by Pelorian daily life, which is dominated by clan-like familiy/in-law structures six or seven generations extended (sounds familiar e.g. from Ireland). Genertela Book presents the Sultanates as ruled by important clans, such as the Eel-ariash. Dart competitions (not dart wars) are fought between clans of nobles rather than between individuals.
Of the conquered people of the empire, the Dara Happans have extensive noble families (aka clans), the Orlanthi have, the east Pelorian earth worshippers (Jarst, probably Garsting) would be, and the Carmanians too. The clan or enlarged family is the basic building unit of nearly all Gloranthan human societies, weirdos like the Brithini excepted. As it was on Earth.
> I don't think their claim to Tribal Kingship in any way depends on their
> relationship to Sartar. Harvar is King of the Vantaros, Duke of Alda-Chur
> (and Farpoint?), I think, to be picky.
>>> Perhaps I should have asked a more >>> clearly-defined question, such as "Is it [the Aeolian Church] >>> similar to the doctrine of the Henotheist Church [of Otkorion]?"
>> As far as I am concerned, yes, it is.
> Okay. My picture is of less Malkioni influence, and correspondingly
> a less prevalent role for the IG in Heortland.
[Aeolians = / <> God Learners]
> Heh. No, what I meant was the inclusion of deities in the creed which
> aren't in _either_ Western or Orlanthi cosmology: I wasn't objecting
> to the combination of these two, which is obviously the whole point.
Which, for example?
>> They all say so in the credo their wizards/priests taught them. I doubt >> that many would seriously reflect on the implications of this tradition.
> Said point was that this Trinity serves as a common "focus" for everyone
> to worship, whereas otherwise they'd be in distinct "cults".
>> I never said that the Elmali were anti-Wind
> You said Orlanth was, or was becoming "not a positive role-model", I think.
I did, I admit it. Yet the Elmali before the Cold Sun schisma would glorify the Silver Age legends when Elmal led the Vingkotlings.
>> [...] The sacred marriage with >> the land for instance would be Elmal's duty rather than Orlanth's in these >> clans and tribes, and rather than to celebrate the short LBQ in Sacred Time >> I'd expect them to reenact I Fought We Won, and the other events on the >> Surface World during the LBQ. [...]
> I think this is true for Yelmalio converts, but for "Old Time Elmali",
> I'm not so sure. At least for Elmal _clans_.
The more rural you become, the less influential the tribe is. I think we agreed that most ceremonies are held at clan-scale, or smaller.
>> The only Sartarite city to qualify before Dara Happans or Esrolites is >> Boldhome, with approximately 10 to 12 thousand citizens (depending on >> whether you count the non-humans).
> Not like you to apply Solar standards, Joerg. };-) I'm talking about cities
> by Sartarite definitions.
I just took the closest neighbours, let me throw in Ralios, Seshnela, or the east, or old time Dragon Pass with its gigantic ruins from First and Third Councils.
> When you speak of Initiates who don't sacrifice POW, don't gain magical
> benefits, but who do worship, how does this differ from the usual (God
> Learnerised, doubtless, RQ2 via assorted RQ3 long forms) idea of Lay
> Membership?
Initiates who enchant the divine link spiritual organ once, by expending one POW, are different in that they are receiving passive magical benefits (such as to become locatable by means of Divination) and an assurance of afterlife the lay member who didn't enchant this link does not. Would yu call Yelm the Youth or Aldrya Wood Children lay members? They sacrificed their POW, but don't gain active magical benefits.
> It's not an idea I'm mad keen about, but I can see you could conjure up
> arguments in favour. It seems very odd that a factoid this whacky wouldn't
> have come to light previously, though.
I've tackled this before. You're just the first to jump at this...
> Runegate I must plead ignorance of, but I can easily believe this to
> be the case. Are these various spirits associated with each district,
> with different clans, or what?
Good question. My info comes fro the CHDP chapter in KoS.
> > and in X-RQ-ID: 3871:
>> Adulthood initiation wouldn't, the basic religious initiation would
>> involve POW sacrifice (once).
> Huh? What, then, is the "basic religious initiation" that costs POW,
> if it isn't "Voriof Initiation" (as you have said elsewhere), and it
> isn't "Adulthood initiation", which you insist have a mandatory religious
> component, via what previously seemed to be to be essentially a "cult"
> consisting of the entire pantheon. (i.e., what I thought we'd agreed
> _not_ to call "cultural initiation".)
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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