Orlanth Miscellaneous.

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From: Alex Ferguson (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Wed 11 May 1994 - 00:18:43 EEST

Joerg:
> There are an awful lot of Orlanth subcults.

> Is an initiate of O.Adventurous simultaneously an initiate of
> O.Thunderous? Any of these an initiate of O.Lightbringer?

I dunno. Prolly similar enough that, say, an O. L. initiate could worship in a O.T. temple, and regain (at least) those spell the two grant in common. I think you can also "convert" between the two without being "reinitiated", though I wouldn't swear to the details.

> Certainly not automatically an initiate of O.Rex?

No, certainly not. (Not that I have a writeup handy.) The trouble here is that the term "subcult" is an inherently ambiguous one, covering about three (any advance on three?) quasi-distinct concepts: a) an Aspect: eg, Lightbringer, or Thunderous, etc; b) an initiatory status, or "stage", eg Storm Voice, Initiate; and c) a "subservient cult", such as the Sandals of Darkness. The term is convenient to describe each of these, but we need to keep distinct, at least some of the time.

I think "Rex" is a subcult in the second sense, as well as the first, and hence "initiation" to this cult is significantly different from the other examples.

> And the rarer subcults: O.Goodvoice, O.Lawspeaker, O.Clown are
> mentioned in the Different Worlds write-up. O.Maker was mentioned
> when I asked for the crafter's cult in Orlanthi society.

> Now everyone can see that these are (quite poor) excuses for combined
> Orlanth and Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Eurmal or Gustbran worship.

Extremely good excuses, in my view. There's lots of (earthly) precedents for this sort of thing, which is not, in my view, true of "pantheon worship". But, I here you cry, they are "poor excuses" -- ya don't get alla Issaries' magic by worshipping O. Goodvoice. What a bummer. I'll tell you another thing: you don't get all of Orlanth's, either. Exactly what magic the cult does get should depend on where on the Orlanth <-> Issaries scale the cult actually is, which may vary according to local inclination.

Note that I _wasn't_ suggesting a redsmith would worship "Orlanth Maker". (Did I hallucinate this subcult? Okay, sue me.) I was suggesting this for "miscellaneous" male-role crafts.

> To
> enter level 2 of the Hughesian discussion levels (RQ-G), they are ways
> to avoid the extra POW sacrifice but get the advantages of the associate
> cult.

I hope you mean "some of the advantages..." Did John mention the Powergamer- Glorantha level? ;-)

> No doubt one could find O.Berserk (Urox), O.Deathbringer (Humakt),
> O.Plowman (Barntar), O.Landgod (Ernalda), and maybe even O.Cold Sun
> (Elmal) if one munchikinizes.

I agree with Orlanth-Barntar, and perhaps Orlanth Berserker (the pre-3rd- age subcult previously discussed?), but the others sound dubious, for various reasons.

> The point I want to make from partly RQ, partly Gloranthan level (sorry,
> John, I can't keep up with these declarations)

Thank Ghod and Saint Stafford! ;-)

> is that there is no
> consistent system in the GL one cult - one deity concept.

Yes, I agree with this. "Are we still worshipping the same god yet?"

But each cult, however unique it is, must worship _something_: something identifiable, and identifiable _with_, for a fairly clearly conceptualisable "purpose", not something hopelessly vague and open-ended like a "pantheon".

Anything more than seven is a committee.

> If we look into KoS, we find the (intentionally misleading)

Your "definitive sources" are getting thinner by the second, Joerg. ;-)

> autobiography of Minaryth
> Purple-turned-Blue "Events of my life". This scholar is generally
> regarded as Lhankor Mhy initiate, being a grey sage,

Yeah. Otherwise all those supplements he's written must be suspect. Mind you, that'd explain a lot.

> sporting a goaty

Nick, have you been Illuminating this poor soul? ;-)

> Yet this worthy was initiated
> with the other boys at the age of 14, lived as a cottar (not
> thane, although elected before buying the oxen), owning a half-team
> of Oxen (until the Lunars take it), and plowing his half hide of fields.
> He fights in the fyrd (militia) like all the other Orlanth Thunderous- or
> Barntar-initiates.

Ivory-tower Academic in "Gets a Life" Shocker!

> Leaving literature level, and entering RQ-level again,
> it is highly unlikely that a 14-year-old boy will be accepted as initiate
> of Lhankor Mhy (which requires almost Rune Lord abilities, although in
> trainable skills)

Minaryth isn't a "typical" 14 year old, I'm sure. Someone given "a quill, a way with words" at birth could be at 90% Write Sartarite by 14.

> yet he is initiated only once.

That he bothers to mention, at least. To obfuscate this point some, consider that "Initiates" of Lhankor Mhy may not (in some places) even be called such: he may have "graduated" to "Journeyman" status, or whatever. Or he may not consider this "formality" worth mention in comparison to his initiation into adulthood.

> (He can write, and is
> elected - presumably into the clan ring - at age 17, so his Lhankor
> Mhy link is not deniable.)

Doesn't mean he's a LM Initiate, at this stage.

> My easiest solutions: 1. the write-up in RoC is wrong

It probably is. But what do you mean, specifically? How does it contradict the above history.

> or preferedly
> 2. the man was initiated into the pantheon

For one thing, 2 => 1. If pantheon initiation is true, Everything You Knew About Initiation is Wrong. Unless you manage some miracle of backward-compatibility in the (forthcoming?) details.

> and slowly developed his
> membership in good standing in both the Orlanth

Why are you so convinced he was an (active) initiate of Orlanth? I could buy it under the "everyone is" theory, but see no need to suppose it otherwise.

> and the Lhankor Mhy
> cult without further major rites of passage.

Cultic initiation is _not_ a rite of passage, as such, for adults: no one argues that one can join a cult as an adult, of any age, so it can hardly have the same ritual significance as passing into culthood (for the first time), and Adulthood (for the only time).

> This is one example of
> initiation into the pantheon, with special emphasis on a deity not
> the primary "object" of initiation.

This is a pretty deuced clear-cut example of initiation into a single deity, but paying attention to one's normal social, including other religious, due. Next example?

> Likewise, any rural Orlanthi male specialises his worship, most farmers
> favour Barntar, while some choose the more exotic deities, like Heler,
> Harst and others, and simultaneously initiated to Orlanth. As boys,
> they were quasi-initiated to Voriof, and as elders past fighting age
> they might belong to another age group cult.

Joerg, you're turning into a closet Yelmite. ;-P Why do you assume that this kind of solar-construction age-stage-cult pertains among the Orlanthi?

> From the rules side, I argue that one minor cult within the Orlanth
> pantheon comes sooner or later with the standard religious initiation,
> and only additional specialized worship beyond the first
> necessitates additional initiation-POW sacrifice-tithes etc. (I can
> see Alex getting an attack of icks here <g>.)

Yup. Are you counting "Orlanth" as one of the possible `free' "minor cult[s]", or is everyone effectively "in" Orlanth _and_ a "minor cult" _*and*_ a "pantheon initiate"?

If the first: Okay, I join my "free" cult <X>. How does this differ from me being Initiated into <X> under the RQ3 rules? I'm also a "pantheon initiate", but that just means I'm an associate of various cults, which I'm associated to anyway via <X>. This is bearable, but seems pointless.

If the second: while true do Ick();

> (I'd still like to know by which name these people [the Solar hill
> barbarians throughout southern Peloria and northern Dragon Pass],
> outside of Lunar influence, know their solar deity.)

All of The Above? Yelmalio where Alda-Churi missionaries have got to them, Elmal in the die-hard areas, and Antirius within the area of Dara Happan influence. Possibly some more we haven't heard of, even.

> Lodril is a jack of all trades, warrior, plowman, crafter, advisor and
> fertility-bringer, just like Orlanth above, but also the Pelorian
> farmers have their specialist cults within general Lodril worship.

Yup, I agree with all this. GRAY does too: the Ten Sons and Servants are surely all subcults of ol' squarehead.

> In all these cases, initiate status with the major male deity of the
> culture is the basic definition for all males, and likewise for females.

This seems like rather than "everyone is an initiate of the Theyalan pantheon" (say), you are saying "everyone is an initiate of Orlanth or Ernalda". I find the second much more palatable, though it may amount to much the same thing in the end. You may counter that the picky details aren't the same, to which I swiftly riposte: fudge 'em; or live with 'em. (Course (b) is strongly indicated with all these powergamingly selfless NPCs you seem to have.)

I find it strange that people can simultaneously propose, or agree with propositions that initiation is a "theistic heroquest of personal transformation" (to paraphrase a couple of people, and which I agree with), and then suggest that the person who emerges from this is a Generic Theyalan Pantheon Initiate. At any rate, this doesn't sit well with my personal picture of the relationship between a Gloranthan and hir God, of the nature of initiation and worship, n'stuff.

> Specialization (for the good of the community, and be it the base
> specialization like Barntar) isn't penalized with extra tithing, extra
> temple duty etc.

These aren't _penalties_, they are _consequences_. How do you plan on getting something for nothing in the magical ecology? Are these time and tithing requirements just something imposed by wicked game designers, referees, and priests, or do they fulfill some game-world purpose? I'd like to think of initiation to a god as being something a bit less mundane than "specialisation", too.

And there seems something rather fishy about this whole idea of "multiple specialisation", as such. Worshipping many entities makes you _less_ specialised, by any reasonable metric, surely.

> On the other hand, specialization for selfish gains
> deserves all the disadvantages the rules prescribe for "adventurer"
> characters.

How do you plan on telling the difference? If communities can get Free Lunches, why not us, I hear your players crying.

> (Does this relieve your icks, Alex?)

No. I don't want to see powergaming peasants _or_ powergaming adventurers. I think that where combined worship of two gods is a social need for a community, then there will exist a "fudged" cult, combining or identifying them. (Though not getting the full benefits of either.) If this need or desire exists on an individual level: tuff, he has to join both cults, and if one of them isn't worshipped at all in his area, dubbletuff.

Alex.

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