From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Wed 11 May 1994 - 18:04:21 EEST
Alex in X-RQ-ID: 3965
> Joerg, 3886.
>> Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3865 >>> You mean his parents are weavers, or merchants? If the later, one presumes >>> they're members of some Malkioni(sed) merchant class, likely including an >>> element of Issaries worship.
His parents are crafters and behave like medieval guildsmen, i.e. proto- capitalists, in that they try to aquire and hold privileges.
>> So is the >> boy (now), at home. Additionally he took St. Dormal as a patron for his >> sea voyages. I didn't charge extra POW sacrifice.
> Just how many cultic initiations does one get free on special offer with
> pantheon initiation currently, then?
Misunderstanding here. The young man in question is learning Aeolian wizardry (elsewhere wrongly known as sorcery) as his magic, low magic only. This low magic he learns from both the pantheistic offers of the Aeolian church, the special low magic of St. Issaries, and the special low magic of St Dormal. If he desires so, he may learn a bit divine magic - those spells the deities involved grant to their associates, so he will get all special Issaries spells handed out to associates, most associate spells Aeolian Orlanth gets, all associate spells Issaries gets, and all Dormal gets. All of these to initiate conditionsm, and he would have to prove himself worthy for every single one of them ("heroquest for them"). So far he is content to stick with the wizardry spells.
>> Orlanth Maker: This sounds like a God Learner construct to me.
> It does? Is that a compliment, Joerg? ;-)
Take it as such, and line up for extermination, citizen (Paranoia mode off).
> I'm not sure where Orlanth
> Maker sprang from, but if a culture developes specialised tasks it didn't
> have a mythic rationale for, they have to be tacked on somewhere.
Usually by taking a cultural hero or a specialized deity into the pantheon. See my disgression on saints below.
> Stick to the other suggestions, if you'd rather. Another would be to
> "reinterpret" a handmaiden of Ernalda as a child of E. and Orlanth.
A child of Ernalda - no doubt. As for Orlanth as father - I think he is satisfied to claim most of her sons as his children.
>> I view Orlanth much as the tribal chief who has his >> retainers for such tasks, and who plows mainly to please his wife, now and >> then.
> More closet Yelmism. ;-) Orlanth is the god of Everyman, as well as King.
(Note that adoption into the Yelm cult is possible: Light Priests may become Yelm the Elder members, their children may become Yelm initiates. How else did Southbank change from "Yelmalio" to Yelm?)
>> Being caring parents, they wanted him initiated where his family lives, and >> the uncle could sponsor him mainly for St. Issaries at the local temple. >> There is a small shrine to St. Dormal, but that is mainly there for >> completeness' sake, and to honor the heroquester who overcame Zzabur's >> curse, not the sailor.
> The Aeolisation of your example confuses things rather for me, but it seems
> fairly clear that in this context he could have been initiated to the
> appropriate god(s) without the (wretched <g>) excesses of pantheon
> initiation.
He is an Aeolian initiate, which means he may worship at any sacred place of the church, plus he will experience somewhat friendly reception at Orlanthi and Lightbringer temples, if only as lay member. He is an initiate of the church, first of all. He has undergone special introduction (to avoid the word initiation) into the secrets of St. Issaries and St. Dormal. These are his patrons. If you want to press it into the one man - one cult scheme, you might phrase it thus (set ick=100%): "He is an initiate of the sorcery-using Issaries-subcult of Dormal." This doesn't explain his Aeolian ties, and how he remains in the same religion as his parents, and how he will share his afterlife with his ancestors, though.
> Due to the presence of the word "Saint" in front of each of the deities'
> names, I'm having increasing difficulty in imagining a Heortlander, of a
> culture still described as "Orlanthi", pronouncing them with a straight
> face.
First of all, all Hendriki are Heortlander, but not all Heortlander are Hendriki. The Volsaxi and Kitori certainly aren't. The fourth nation (called "tribe" in the publications) of Heortland remains unnamed for now, I'd appreciate input about where they live and how they are different from the Hendriki and Volsaxi. I'd also appreciate further info on the Kitori, Whitewall and the Volsaxi, and anything else already done about Heortland.
The Hendriki aren't really Orlanthi. Neither are all Sartarites, not even an Orlanthi-all (85%). Ducks, Telmori, Yelmalian Alda-churi tribes don't worship Orlanth.
> Given that they believe them to be divine, and distinct from
> "ordinary" saints, why confuse them with the use of the title? Personally
> I believe that "even" the thoroughgoingly Malkionised henotheists of
> Ralios don't use the term in this way. Of course, where to draw the
> line between a manifest god and a (once) mortal Saint is another kettle
> of kumquats.
Now I fail to see the problem. Dormal is a deity, right? He was a human once. Sartar is a deity. Arkat is one, he even has his own constellation. Malkion was a deity. King Heort is a cult hero of Orlanth, and an Aeolian Saint. So are Alakoring Dragonbreaker, Ingolf Dragonfriend, Harmast Barefoot, and other worthies. Harst, Garzeen and Goldentongue were human, enough so to wed human women.
Where do you draw the line between a worshipped hero and a deity?
The Aeolians have a simple definition of Saint: an entity worshipped
by the church and its members.
This includes Belintar, the Bretwalda (aka Pharaoh), whose
worship is state-requested, even though he still lives (in 1615, at least,
which is when my campaign sets off). This includes the Malkioni prophets,
Malkion and Hrestol, as cultural heroes. In case of Malkion also as divine
saint, acknowledging his family ties to Orlanth (as son of Aerlit Kolatsson
he is a grand-nephew of Orlanth). This includes the various sons of Orlanth,
and his acknowledged daughter (Vinga), commonly known as Thunder Brothers,
but individually known as well, at least a few of them (Vingkot, Drorgalar).
Are these deities, or are they human saints?
King Heort is an eighth generation descendant from Vingkot. Is he a human,
or a deity by birth? By achievement?
Sartar is not an Aeolian Saint, at least not in Heortland. He could become
one if refugees from Sartar who remain faithful to their founder's spirit
join the Aeolian creed.
Dormal is an Aeolian saint, because in the Hendriki ports his worship is
conducted by members of the church.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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