From: Alex Ferguson (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Thu 12 May 1994 - 20:44:53 EEST
Joerg:
> Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3924
> > For one thing the Lunar religion doesn't _have_ any particular
> > clan structure to impose on people, and isn't philosophically inclined
> > to do so anyway.
> Lunar religion and civilisation is heavily influenced by Pelorian daily
> life, which is dominated by clan-like familiy/in-law structures six or
> seven generations extended (sounds familiar e.g. from Ireland).
Pelorian extended families sound quite unlike clans to me: for one thing, they aren't "closed" structures: if A is "related" to B, and B to C, it may well be the case that A and C are not. (At least if I understand it correctly. This isn't true of Irish <Gaelic fumbled: reroll on spurious utterance table>, though they do have the remarkable property of not being _symmetric_ (i.e., A "related" to B may not mean B "related" to A), which is funny enough to be going on with. Though "clan" isn't defined in this way among the Irish, either.
> The Lunar philosophy might not be inclined to think in clan structures.
> Society does so, and religious practise probably as well.
I didn't say the Lunars don't _have_ clans, I said their religion doesn't impose a particular clan structure. This is manifestly obvious even from your examples, which cites _different_ social organisations within the Empire (and mostly not clan-based ones, but that's neither here or there).
So what are they going to do in Sartar, leave the indiginous structure basically alone, and quietly subvert it, or try to mass-transplant an arbitrary social structure from the Heartlands?
> > I don't think their claim to Tribal Kingship in any way depends on their
> > relationship to Sartar.
> I didn't say that. But I think that nearly any candidate for tribal
> kingship could produce a tenuous family tie to the royal house if
> pressured.
You seem to imply it, by statements such as this. Why would they ever be "pressured" into demonstrating such a tie? If it does exist, it would be more to do with inter-tribal, and tribe-to-crown marriages of political convenience. (Or, heaven forfend, of love.)
> > I think this is true for Yelmalio converts, but for "Old Time Elmali",
> > I'm not so sure. At least for Elmal _clans_.
> The more rural you become, the less influential the tribe is.
I don't think this necessarily follows, unless you live someplace so remote that your tribal king says "Who?" when the name of your clan is mentioned. Of course, in the more "primitive" areas, which may or may not be more "rural" (more city-free, at least) tribal organisation may be weak or non-existant, but that's a separate issue, I think.
> I think we agreed that most ceremonies are held at clan-scale, or smaller.
We did? I think High Holy Day and Sacred Time ceremonies involve participants from more than one clan, myself, and quite possibly from the whole tribe. Seasonal Holy Days I'm less sure about. Weekly worship (which is "optional", really), certainly held within the clan. (Or town/village etc., anyway.)
I think the whole "point" in having an Elmal clan, in an "ordinary" tribe, is to provide ritual opponents and aides for the various rituals with a solar presence. Since ritual activity involving more than one tribe is likely to be very uncommon, this will tend to make them much more sun-centred in their worship, and "uppity" as a result.
> Which are stockades surrounded by stone walls, and ruled by a ring of
> three or more tribes (except for Alone and Boldhome).
Well, the Sartarites call them cities, so what's the necessity of the comparison? Now granted, this does mean that they are less "citified" than urban Esrolians, but I only wished to make a comparison within Sartar.
> > Runegate I must plead ignorance of, but I can easily believe this to
> > be the case. Are these various spirits associated with each district,
> > with different clans, or what?
> Good question. My info comes fro the CHDP chapter in KoS.
Oh, that: could simply mean city god/hero plus subcults. Or in the same vein as having "Temple spirits". Or anything, really. Not, mind you, that I think all cities _need_ necessarily have a (single) "City god" in anything terribly much like the GoG/Pavis model...
Alex.
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