Sheepish initiates.

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From: Alex Ferguson (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Fri 13 May 1994 - 01:13:35 EEST

Joerg the Generic, in round #<umpteen> of the Initiation thread:

> Alex Ferguson in X-RQ-ID: 3868

> >> So the youths not having chosen a specific patron
> >> are low initiates, or associate initiates.

> > But if you're including non-Adults in this category, aren't you demurring
> > from the proposition that being "Initiated" in this sense is a sign of
> > adulthood, which appeared to be the original purpose of this idea?

> "Everyone involved would see the difference, it's obvious."

I'm having difficulty doing so, I have to confess. It still appears that you're saying you _need_ this particular mechanism (pantheon initiation) for one thing (adulthood init.), and that the two _must_, for various reasons, be intertwined, and are then blithely seeking to extend it to sonething quite different, and on the face of it somewhat contradictory (whether, and how, children worship).

> The mass of Vori<a/of> "initiates" symbolize the new life, and are as
> such extremely important. Should they fumble the ritual, the whole
> community might suffer severely.

They might be important in some notional sense, but I don't see that they'd be required to actually _do_ anything. As "non-initiates" they don't have the knowledge, or the necessary magical viewpoint.

But fertility rituals (your argument as to why it's a Good Thing for boys to worship Voriof) are of less importance in towns, and most boys are likely to be coralled more into their Apprenticeship roles, or whatever they Plan On Being When They Grow Up, than something nicely generic, and of no possible use to them.

> In larger cities like Boldhome, Jansholm, Durengard, Karse etc. sheep may
> be less important, but we know at least from Boldhome that representatives
> of non-resident cults (Urox) are imported for their festivals.

Indeed, but why would this be done specially, if the implied link between sheparding and boys isn't of any local significance?

> >> We come together, if slowly. I would differentiate
> >> between various forms of associate initiates, though.

> For Orlanthi:
> Youth associates

I think this is a confusing concept. Voria "initiates" don't get _any_ magical benefits from their "associates", so if you insist on a precisely analogous Voriof cult, then its members aren't "Initiates" and don't have "associates", in the God Learner sense.

> in-culture associates (members of Orlanth's stead,
> or cultural heroes apotheosized), or extra-culture associates, like
> Argan Argar or Storm Bull (not Urox) in the Garhound contest.

Why do you make this distinction? You mean because the first lot are what you want Low Initiation to cover, and the remainder are "normal" associates?

I also think that to say "Storm Bull (not Urox)" is to conflate the notions of different _cults_ with that of different gods.

> > When you speak of Initiates who don't sacrifice POW, don't gain magical
> > benefits, but who do worship, how does this differ from the usual (God
> > Learnerised, doubtless, RQ2 via assorted RQ3 long forms) idea of Lay
> > Membership?

> Initiates who enchant the divine link spiritual organ once, by expending
> one POW, are different in that they are receiving passive magical
> benefits (such as to become locatable by means of Divination) and an
> assurance of afterlife the lay member who didn't enchant this link
> does not.

You aren't using the term consistently to mean this, though. Not that anyone else uses it consistently to mean anything, either, of course. Specifically, you also use the term of people who _don't_ sacrifice POW, for which the above (I presume) doesn't apply. True, you have the "precedent" of Voria for this, but in this context it's getting very confusing.

I must say that your use of the term "Initiation" is sorta confusing in general. Put your God Learner hat on for a moment (I'm sure it's handy <g>): there is clearly a very particular "normal" structure to the Initiate status, the details of which I needn't belabour. The Seven Mothers cult bends them, Voria and the Red Goddess break them (though use of the term in these cases does make a sort of stream of consciousness sense).

Taking our hats back off again, I'm also dubious that the people at the sharp end would be so keen to use the term to describe anything and everything.

> Would yu call Yelm the Youth or Aldrya Wood Children lay members?

God Learner trick question? ;-) Presumably rhetorical, since they don't fall into the category I described. I wouldn't, for the record.

> They sacrificed their POW, but don't gain active magical benefits.

And so everyone else must do it this way too, even if it kills them? It doesn't unduly bother me that some cults work this way; it's at least clear what god/cult is being worshipped.

Note that these "pre-initiate" statuses are in fact filled by non-adults in these cults, if you're seeking to draw a close analogy. (Not so very coincidentally, they are also cults which the eligible candidate "must" be (fully, as it were) initiated into, for social reasons.)

> Adulthood initiation wouldn't, the basic religious initiation would
> involve POW sacrifice (once).

But isn't the whole point of your argument that they're the same thing?

> The religious ceremony where the young adult enchants hir spiritual
> organ by sacrificing one pointa POW to establish the divine link, to
> whomever, which takes place in the year of hir adulthood rites, possibly
> during these.

If they aren't simultaneous, or effectively so, there seems no reason to suppose they must happen within a year, or whatever. Either they are "inextricably linked", or they're not.

[I think I feel a "truce" coming on, on this subject, at once once I get a few parting shots out of my pipeline/system... Sorry if this message is even more patchily-written than usual, trying to tidy up several loose ends.]

Alex.

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