From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Fri 13 May 1994 - 23:20:02 EEST
Alex, X-RQ-ID: 3988
> Okay. My picture is of less Malkioni influence, and correspondingly
> a less prevalent role for the IG in Heortland.
Me:
: Which I assume for [...] even half of the Hendriki nation, mostly the lower : classes. That the higher classes of the Hendriki are somewhat malkionized : follows clearly from both Genertela Book and RQ-Companion.
Alex:
> Yes, I agree with this last bit, but you've been proposing that "weavers"
> follow the Aeolian church. To say nothing of "Saint Barntar".
I said half of the Hendriki nation. The upper class consists of maybe 10% of the population, the (urban) middle-class maybe again 5%, including the specialized crafters (at least masters and journeymen). This leaves about 35% of farmers, cottars etc. to follow the Aeolian Church. With most of the wizards being acolytes as well, these serve as clergy for the urban "theist" shrines as well (associate priests, if you want).
> [Aeolians = / <> God Learners]
> Heh. No, what I meant was the inclusion of deities in the creed which
> aren't in _either_ Western or Orlanthi cosmology
[me deleted]
> I forget the whole creed, but Maker and Grower spring to mind, and the
> identification of Glorantha, Ginna Jar, and Arachne Solara.
The Ginna Jar identification is common Lhankor Mhy prattle, hardly God Learner. This entity isn't worshipped directly, so why the hubbub?
Grower and Maker are part of the cosmology, explaining the basics of Creation in one paragraph. (I hope the Aeolian write-up will be out as Digest by now.) I didn't want to start with CoT Silence and Prime Mover, so I took the mainstream 3rd Age cosmology as per GoG.
Alex:
> My understanding is that the dominant Western influence on Maniria is
> post-Closing. (The "Trader Princes". See G:CotHW; GB2, p46.)
Me:
: That's the western part of Maniria, west of Esrolia.
Alex:
> I still suspect this is the origin of said influence, but I grant that
> Heortland is more Westernised than the rest of Maniria.
You forget the other, closer influence: Old Slontos, which was firmly in the Return to Rightness fold of Malkionism, which extended into the Zistori lands of Godd Forgot. The presence of knights would have prompted any subgraduate God Learner to prove the Hendriki were Malkioni, so even if Arkat had only given them knights, the Empire of the Middle Seas would have given them the Invisible God.
> Minor quibble: they didn't, really, as Hendriki "knights" aren't a
> Malkioni-style caste or class, much less anything at all like modern
> Hrestoli knights.
Right. They are most similar to Hrestol's original idea of knights. (I assume that by "modern Hrestoli" you mean the Loskalmi second generation God Learners, and not the valiant Hrestoli of Seshnela's Castle Coast with their more Linealist approach...)
> I'm not convinced that any Westerner likely to accompany Arkat, a person
> who'd just apostasised from their religion, would be likely to make good
> "missionary" material.
These were the very guys who converted Arkat to their own creed (of 1st Age Hrestolism, which - opposed to God Learning claims by the Loskalmi - looked different than Loskalmi fighting order/regimental knighthood). Of all Seshnegi Hrestoli, Arkat's earliest friends are the most likely to stay with their leader, even though he tragically fell from true faith. Oath-bonds are stronger than religious differences, among honourable men.
> Certainly not to the extend that a millenium later,
> a country in the middle of theist territory would end up as IG-inclined as
> central Ralios, who have Seshnela breathing down their necks. That they'd
> influence them in military matters is easier to believe.
For one thing, knighthood wouldn't have survived without the appropriate hero cults, which happen to be Malkioni Saints. Second, "right in the middle of theist territory" is a funny definition for people having Ancestor worshipping trolls to the north, quite shamanistic Beast Riders to the East, a mix of Atheists to the south, and a bay full of mermen 300 metres below their lands to the west. They had the God Learners and the Return to Rightness crusaders breathing down their neck during the greater part of the Second Age, too.
[Quivini settlers from the Holy Country]
> Indeed, but they and their fellow colonists, who were likely to have
> similar motivations, don't seem likely to be fertile ground for rampant
> Malkionisation.
Then why did they leave, if back home everyone and his cat were good Orlanthi?
> Stop arguing with me while I'm trying to agree with you. ;-)
You could have warned me. <g>
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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