Alex request for my God Learner head

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From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Fri 13 May 1994 - 23:22:35 EEST


Alex, read Loren's entry in X-RQ-ID: 3994. He repeats my basic intention.

Your confusion from X-RQ-ID: 3996

> Joerg the Generic, in round #<umpteen> of the Initiation thread:

Generous doesn't end on "ic" (or "ick"), Alex...

> I'm having difficulty doing so, I have to confess. It still appears that
> you're saying you _need_ this particular mechanism (pantheon initiation)
> for one thing (adulthood init.), and that the two _must_, for various
> reasons, be intertwined, and are then blithely seeking to extend it
> to sonething quite different, and on the face of it somewhat contradictory
> (whether, and how, children worship).

I "_need_" the following partly, not totally independent mechanisms about initiation:

I don't need them all at once, but when I think about adulthood initiation, I like to know what was before, and what changes, and how important the one man - one god relation really is. 

J> The mass of Vori<a/of> "initiates" symbolize the new life, and are as 
J> such extremely important. Should they fumble the ritual, the whole 
J> community might suffer severely.

> They might be important in some notional sense, but I don't see that
> they'd be required to actually _do_ anything. As "non-initiates" they
> don't have the knowledge, or the necessary magical viewpoint.

You don't need any magic knowledge to be involved in a heroquest. All you need is the right series of mythically relevant actions to set off the overlap between Heroplane and Mundane Plane. In Sacred Time, this overlap is active anyway.

> But fertility rituals (your argument as to why it's a Good Thing for boys
> to worship Voriof) are of less importance in towns,

Wrong. A town depends solely on the fertility of the surrounding rural commodities for survival. You won't find a city inhabited by Orlanthi which imports basic foodstuff. Reread the excellent "Civilization" chapter in the rulesbook, GM section.

> and most boys are likely
> to be coralled more into their Apprenticeship roles, or whatever they
> Plan On Being When They Grow Up, than something nicely generic, and of no
> possible use to them.

"For school we learn, not for life"

Most boys aren't apprenticed yet. (Not at all, according to RQ3 character generation rules, although this takes rules interpretation too far). They have received basic social training, common knowledge, maybe a bit specialisation from their parents' trades. All of them want to become chieftain or something like that at the time of their "Voriof-introduction", sometime around their 6th, 9th or 12th summer.

J> For Orlanthi:
J> Youth associates

> I think this is a confusing concept. Voria "initiates" don't get
> _any_ magical benefits from their "associates", so if you insist on
> a precisely analogous Voriof cult, then its members aren't "Initiates"
> and don't have "associates", in the God Learner sense.

Again and again: Magical benefits needn't be "do it yourself" magic. In western and eastern culture, most magic is left to the priesthood, in Orlanthi culture it is left to the adults. Would you want to risk your children falling unconscious fooling around with a Befuddle spell, and become easy prey for a malevolent spirit? Rather put them into a proto- cult which might even provide spirits to guard them.

> I also think that to say "Storm Bull (not Urox)" is to conflate the
> notions of different _cults_ with that of different gods.

Different myths, not cults. In Orlanth's myths, Urox hardly would figure as husband of Ernalda, he's just beastly big brother, bashing headlong into the fray. In Praxian myth, the Bull had married the Earth. Whether these different myths make them different deities I leave up to Campbells apostles. It makes them different aspects, to say the least.

> I must say that your use of the term "Initiation" is sorta confusing in
> general.

I use it according to Webster's Dictionary of the English Language.

"in-i-ti-ate [...] --v.t. [...] 3. to admit with formal rites into secret knowledge, a society, etc."

This covers religious as well as social initiation on all levels.

> Put your God Learner hat on for a moment (I'm sure it's handy
> <g>): there is clearly a very particular "normal" structure to the
> Initiate status, the details of which I needn't belabour. The Seven
> Mothers cult bends them, Voria and the Red Goddess break them (though
> use of the term in these cases does make a sort of stream of consciousness
> sense).

I don't see how the Red Goddess breaks it any more than say Yelm or Orlanth do, with my hat on. Nor do I see the telling difference between one god per cult (say like Lodril or Etyries), two gods (Caladra and Aurelion) or seven (The Seven Mothers, The Lightbringers' Ring). If Voria breaks the rules, so does Aldrya, and Mostal does, the Invisible God does, the Red Emperor does, the Pharaoh does, Godunya does, in that all of these have sub-rune rank members above lay member (no secrets, no active worship) status.

THE GOD LEARNER SPEAKS: "Initiates are an intermediate state of magical development for those who follow the theist principle. Initiation on its basest level includes the enchanting of the candidate's Godplane personality in the lowest degree, allowing the specific deathbed or heroquesting transition into the Godplane realm the initiation pertains to. As a heroquester's tool, initiation allows quick access into the myths of this creed. As such, it matters little whether this link pertains to a vague elemental power, a specific set of Runes, or a group of Runic entities associated with the initiation enchantment.
Generally, the initiate is able to expand this link through later enchantments so that she or he will gain access to the magical essence of the other side of the initiation link. If this link has been expanded far enough, the next stage of magical development can be approached. If one accepts the Newfroswal catalogue of the various stages of cultic membership [aka Universal Cult Format], one has a rough tool to describe most phenomena of initiation. The advanced heroquester won't let this construct hamper his access the magical powers open to exploitation via this link. Especially the "one-use" character of magic has been proven to be a product of the ignorance of ordinary practitioners not familiar with modern power- gathering techniques. Since these depend in part on just this ignorance, we advise not to undertake steps to change this attitude, unless a special experiment requires this fast depletion of the source. Now, enough theorising, let's mount Umaliath and be done."

You mean the bland initiate definition from the Universal Cult Format, right? I am in fact astonished that something so _generic_ is defended as being Gloranthan fact, not to be touched except for a few cases.

> It doesn't unduly bother me that some cults work this way; it's at least
> clear what god/cult is being worshipped.

The cult of Orlanth's Stead? <ducking>

> (Not so very
> coincidentally, they are also cults which the eligible candidate "must"
> be (fully, as it were) initiated into, for social reasons.)

Just like in good old Sartar, right?

J> Adulthood initiation wouldn't, the basic religious initiation would J> involve POW sacrifice (once).

> But isn't the whole point of your argument that they're the same thing?

I said they come simultaneously for "all" Orlanthi. Even people who love a good festival as much as our Sartarite friends will have a limit of festivals in honour of their offspring. --
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de

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