Declaring victory, moving on

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From: Argrath@aol.com
Date: Sat 14 May 1994 - 23:50:05 EEST


Re: Nick's Platonic Stygians

     Now we're getting somewhere. Inspiration, not direct transfers from analogues.

Re: Sandy's comments on the Trinity

     Now I can declare victory. However, given Sandy's openness to being convinced of the importance of trinities, let me add that the Christian trinity is not like some other trinities. Frinstance, the Hindus have had various trinities in different periods of their history, and they were always independent gods worshiped by different tribes or in different places, brought together to serve a united social group. Brahma, Vishnu, and Siva are the most recent three, and they are given complementary roles in the mythology relating them (Creator, Sustainer, and Destroyer). But if you has Sivists which is the greatest of the three, you'll get a different answer than if you ask devotees of either of the other two.

     The Christian trinity has been interpreted in many different ways, so it's difficult to generalize. But the themes have been: whether Christ's nature is wholly divine, wholly human, or a mix; whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone or from the Father and the Son; whether the Christ is of the same, similar, or different substance with the Father (see theme 1); whether the three are one person or three; etc.

     Thus, if you did get a trinity in some off-brand Stygianism, it'd be more like the Hindu model than the Christian. "OK, we worship Malkion, you guys worship Orlanth, and those guys worship Mralot. Well, I had a vision last night that explained how Orlanth and Mralot are really Malkion's sons, and incidentally it explains why we get to be kings over you guys..."

     Now, following Nick's lead, I can see arguments about the nature of divinity, and so on. Some of the baser Stygians might claim that their favored god is an incarnation, as opposed to creation, of the IG. And since he (or she) works in the world, the god is better than the IG, or perhaps even more powerful.

     A bit of trivia: many so-called primitive religions have an otiose high god. This has been used to argue for monotheism being the original religion (following a Biblical line), contrary to Frazer's too-easy Pantheism->Polytheism->Monotheism
[->Atheism] progression.

Joerg threatens: "Nothing hinted at Elmal, Rakenveg, Kargzant..."

     Sorry, I'm not ready to be Joerged, and probably never will get to the point where I would accept being Joerged. But I guess if you can't defend your position from within published material, you'll have to invent it.

     I meant to comment on someone else's statement a few days ago that one of two positions would turn out to be True, if Greg Stafford ever focuses his attention on it. My comment was "No, at least one of you will be wrong, and both of you could be." That applies with equal force here, but we can only go on what we have.

Re: Joerg's desperate rear-guard action (calling Marshall Ney...)

     "Catch a non-Stygian venerating St. Paslac, or St. Arkat. St. Rokar certainly is _not_ worshipped in Loskalm, and even less at the Castle Coast."

     I don't even need unpublished materials to refute this one. From "What the Wizard Says" in GoG: "We Malkioni belong to many different castes and sects, but all of us recognize the divinity of a saint, no matter what sect he attained his sainthood through." Malkionism just refuses to be warmed-over Christianity, no matter how hard you try, Joerg.

Next: a new topic (finally)
--Martin

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