From: Alex Ferguson (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Mon 16 May 1994 - 00:22:15 EEST
Joerg:
> Subject: Sonic abilities
> Alex said
> >There's also the small detail that echos are ultrasonic
> So I think it's perfectly sensible to have darkspeech contain
> onomatopoeia from sub- and suprasonic echoes darksense provides.
My reputation for sarcasm preceedeth me: tongue in cheek tone aside, I wasn't suggesting this wasn't possible, or even likely.
> Subject: Aeolian initiates
> >> Additionally he took St. Dormal as a patron for his
> >> sea voyages. I didn't charge extra POW sacrifice.
> > Just how many cultic initiations does one get free on special offer with
> > pantheon initiation currently, then?
> Misunderstanding here. The young man in question is learning Aeolian
> wizardry (elsewhere wrongly known as sorcery) as his magic, low magic only.
I think the question is still valid, but I'll try to contain myself. (After all, sorcery is sometimes taught in cults, even theistic cults.)
> This low magic he learns from both the pantheistic offers of the Aeolian
> church
This is a very confusing way to describe sorcery, which isn't even theistic in origin.
> If he desires so, he may learn a bit divine magic - those
> spells the deities involved grant to their associates
> So is in a pure Grazer tribe (no adopted vendref) Yu-kargzant (not quite
> Yelm, but close), and whatever the name in Pent may be, among the Pent
> nomads.
This is a good question, and one that might great influence my interpretation of Dara Happan (pre-/alleged) history.
Kargzant? Yelm?
> (Note that adoption into the Yelm cult is possible: Light Priests may
> become Yelm the Elder members, their children may become Yelm initiates
I don't think this method works in general, else (pre-Lunar) Dara Happa would be hip-deep in Yelm worshippes. In the unlikely event of Yelm the Sage members being allowed and able to procreate, I suspect their children "don't count" as Yelm candidates.
> How else did Southbank change from "Yelmalio" to Yelm?)
HeroQuest, n'stuff.
> I didn't intend this as a component of our initiation debate, but I had
> this as an actual problem to be solved in my campaign.
Well, that was the context you brought up the example in...
> He is an Aeolian initiate, which means he may worship at any sacred place of
> the church, plus he will experience somewhat friendly reception at Orlanthi
> and Lightbringer temples, if only as lay member.
Shurely shome mishtake: sorceror, burn, kill?
> He is an initiate of the church, first of all.
Is this in the sense of theistic initiation, or more like wizardly apprenticeship?
> If you want to press it into the one man - one cult scheme,
I don't really: I've already said the structure you propose for a henotheistic cult (and a very sorcery-oriented one at that, it turns out) sounds perfectly decent. I just happen to have qualms about having such a church in Heortland, or of using a similar model elsewhere.
> you might phrase it thus (set ick=100%):
> "He is an initiate of the sorcery-using Issaries-subcult of Dormal."
> This doesn't explain his Aeolian ties, and how he remains in the same
> religion as his parents, and how he will share his afterlife with his
> ancestors, though.
> > Due to the presence of the word "Saint" in front of each of the deities'
> > names, I'm having increasing difficulty in imagining a Heortlander, of a
> > culture still described as "Orlanthi", pronouncing them with a straight
> > face.
> First of all, all Hendriki are Heortlander, but not all Heortlander are
> Hendriki.
> The Hendriki aren't really Orlanthi.
We part company here, then. I'm sufficiently happy with my own (if only entirely personal) interpretation of the sources on this that I'm not going to argue about them.
> Neither are all Sartarites, not even an Orlanthi-all (85%).
I'm using "Orlanthi" here in the cultural sense, not to mean Orlanth cultist. As are you, in the above phrase. You say exactly the opposite elsewhere, though, modulo gender qualification:
> All (85%) Orlanthi males are initiated to Orlanth (KoS p.245f).
> Ducks
I think most ducks worship Orlanth or Humakt, myself.
> Telmori, Yelmalian Alda-churi tribes don't worship Orlanth.
True.
> > Given that they believe them to be divine, and distinct from
> > "ordinary" saints, why confuse them with the use of the title?
> > [...] Of course, where to draw the
> > line between a manifest god and a (once) mortal Saint is another kettle
> > of kumquats.
> Now I fail to see the problem. Dormal is a deity, right? He was a human
> once. Sartar is a deity. Arkat is one, he even has his own constellation.
> [...] Where do you draw the line between a worshipped hero and a deity?
There is no firm dividing line, I wasn't suggesting such. I _said_ this, for Saint Sir Orlanth's sakes. Indeed, it was you who brought up the idea of a "distinction" between "divine" and "mortal" saints.
> The Aeolians have a simple definition of Saint: an entity worshipped
> by the church and its members.
> King Heort is an eighth generation descendant from Vingkot. Is he a human,
> or a deity by birth? By achievement?
He's a hero, if it matters.
> Subject: Elmal's identities
> >> (I'd still like to know by which name these people [the Solar hill
> >> barbarians throughout southern Peloria and northern Dragon Pass],
> >> outside of Lunar influence, know their solar deity.)
> > Yelmalio where Alda-Churi missionaries have got to them,
Why ever not? It's a Yelmalio-worshipping area, and close to/in the area in question. I was _not_ suggesting it was the source of the cult.
I'd be inclined to make Dykene Yelmalio-worshipping: I think missionaries could have reached there long since. Failing which one could always invoke HeroQuest-induced Revealed Truth.
> and they certainly
> didn't reach the Arrolian territories before the Thawing of the Ban.
Nope.
> > Elmal in the die-hard areas, and Antirius within the area of
> > Dara Happan influence.
> Antirius? I've been swayed to Shargash as the likely deity of the
> 2nd Age Sun Dome Templars.
Unlikely, given the importance of the Hill of Gold myth. At a stretch, this could have been "adopted" later, but...
> Antirius was the sun within the Dara Happan
> dome against the ice, and he died before the Dawn. The God of the Sun Dome
> was the defender until the dawn, at least as I read his role from the
> fragments of information available.
Sun Dome, sun inside the DHan dome, these don't sound like irreconcilable concepts to me. Time is an intrinsicly hazy concept in the Moment, and also it's not impossible the two gods could have become partly conflated.
> > Possibly some more we haven't heard of, even.
> Those were the ones I asked for: die-hards in Aggar to Saird; Balazar;
Elmal.
> Southbank in Fronela...
Antirius. Or any of the assorted solar types, at a stretch.
Alex.
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