RE: Divine personalities

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From: CULLEN O'NEILL (cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com)
Date: Wed 18 May 1994 - 10:28:44 EEST

Joerg Baumgartner in X-RQ-ID: 4032
J> One of my main characterisations comparing lay membership to initiatehood
J> is the question of the mutual commitment between deity and worshipper.

This I agree with... indeed I would go farther. Initiation creates an identification between a god and an initiate, such that the initiate becomes identified with the god in every aspect of his life.

J> An initiate has made a commitment lasting past his death, a commitment
J> which affects his soul, spirit or whatever. This affects his afterlife,
J> but as well his spiritual life before death.

Again I totally agree. The commitment to one Archtype is total. Do you mean though that anyone not an initiate isn't 'going to Heaven (or whatever is appropriate)'?

J> Being initiated into a certain cycle of myth allows participation in 

J> these myths via reenactment, aka worship, or heroquest.
                                   ^^^^^^^
Does this last bit mean that lay worshippers can't worship? I don't really
think you mean this, but what do you mean? Do you mean to imply that ALL
forms of worship are essentially heroquests/reenactments? (if this were so Christian worship services would be alot more exciting! ex: "Todays reenactment is the serpent and the apple... everyone please remove your clothes..." ;^) )

J> (Most of these myths have their roots in Godtime, although by the cyclical
J> nature of Time events within Time may become mythical as well. Arkat's
J> struggle against Gbaji is the most prominent one.)

Arkat's struggle is most prominent in what way? To which group of worshippers (Worshippers of Arkat certainly, but not, Orlanth ???) This sounds like an interesting idea... please expand on it.

J> A standard form of (religious) initiation is to a specific deity. Except
J> in rare cases (like Humakt, or the majority of the Invisible God sects)
J> there is no claim for exclusivity of this worship. In several cases more

This is true in the case of lay worship, but being an initiate of more than
one cult is asking for a visit from a spirit of retribution.

J>>> Is this worthy associated with e.g. Eiritha, Babeester Gor or other J>>> associates of Ernalda? Since he uses oxen to plow, possibly with Eiritha
J>>> If he tends an orchard, maybe even with Aldrya? Is he associated with 

J>>> the Lightbringers? With Heler? With Mastakos? Urox? Humakt? Valind?
C>>
C>> I think associate cults were created to address this exact point.
J>
J> The published lists don't answer my questions.

Yes that is true, but making up new myths to explain the relationships seems less invasive than redoing the whole cult structure! In your example: does the fellow really NEED any magic from these other gods? I don't see that he does. In that case with regard to those gods he wishes to venerate/placate he can act as a lay worshipper. Also your point above about: "affects his soul, spirit... afterlife," applies. Is this guy really going to have his "soul, spirit..." affected by a arbitrarily large number of gods? Initiates "...pledge themselves to the focus of a single divine entity." (CoP 7) 

J> In Orlanthi society: if you are a male, act like Orlanth, if a
J> female, like Ernalda. If you are a plowman, act like Barntar, if a
J> charioteer, like Mastakos. If you're a warrior, act like one of the
J> following: Orlanth, Humakt, Heler, Elmal, the Thunder Brothers,
J> Urox, any greater hero.

Well I'd agree that the default if you're not an initiate of another cult is 'act like Orlanth', but if you are a trickster would you still act like Orlanth? <NO> How about if you're a Storm Bull? <NO> So basically Orlanth would have almost all the people as lay members (after all... does the average farmer need Divine Magic?) and only exceptional types become initiated at all.

J> You are what you do, and what you do reflects your role model. Sometimes,
J> as for the warrior, you have the choice how to do something, but mostly
J> you are required to do what the master does.

Well, my impression of Orlanthi culture was that it was looser than 'you are required to do what the master does'. Who is the master? Exactly how does this bit of social analysis relate?

Cullen

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