From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Thu 19 May 1994 - 15:23:56 EEST
Cullen O'Neill in X-RQ-ID: 4068
> This I agree with... indeed I would go farther. Initiation creates an
> identification between a god and an initiate, such that the initiate
> becomes identified with the god in every aspect of his life.
That's Rune Lords. Initiates take their deity as a role model, but most of the time they fail to really identify.
And I think that there won't be any myths about Orlanth going to the lavatory, except if Eurmal was involved.
> Do you mean though that anyone not an initiate isn't 'going
> to Heaven (or whatever is appropriate)'?
Anyone not an initiate will have an afterlife as a spirit, as do the shamanic creeds, IMO. If you call the Hall's of Orlanth Heaven, no, he won't get there.
>J> Being initiated into a certain cycle of myth allows participation in
>J> these myths via reenactment, aka worship, or heroquest.
> ^^^^^^^
> Does this last bit mean that lay worshippers can't worship?
They can, but ineffectively so. Their attendance certainly serves the cult, and may gain the laymen good standing and access to temple facilities, but it won't effect their spiritual life if they aren't initiated to any religion. The thing is different for associate cults, whose participation in the friendly cults' worship ceremonies would even count towards their time requirement, and whose role is a lot more active.
> I don't really
> think you mean this, but what do you mean? Do you mean to imply that
> ALL forms of worship are essentially heroquests/reenactments?
All forms of worship hold elements of reenactments. When a christian priest spreads his arms, he _symbolizes_ among others the crucified Christ. Taking the bread and wine is an reenactment par excellence, maybe not very heroic.
> Arkat's struggle is most prominent in what way? To which group of
> worshippers (Worshippers of Arkat certainly, but not, Orlanth ???)
> This sounds like an interesting idea... please expand on it.
The anti-Gbaji-campaign spanned all of known Genertela (face it: we know next to nothing about the far east), and involved all religions present at that time.
I've just played a pilgrimage following the route a band of 1st Age Hendriki rebels against Palangio the Iron Vrok had taken through Heortland, routing illuminate forces and finally joining Arkat's host on their way into Dragon Pass. Due to the presence of a few illuminated persons in the pilgrimage, the roles of routers and routed became muddled up, and the local spirits became some kind of headache, enough so to alarm the local spirit master and send his apprentice plus a band of youths at temple service to investigate.
The pilgrimage was an Orlanthi/Aeolian one, yet it involved the Arkat/Gbaji conflict. Regardless where you go in western and central Genertela, you will find repercussions of this.
> J> A standard form of (religious) initiation is to a specific deity.
> Except
> J> in rare cases (like Humakt, or the majority of the Invisible God
> sects)
> J> there is no claim for exclusivity of this worship. In several cases
> more
> This is true in the case of lay worship, but being an initiate of more
> than
> one cult is asking for a visit from a spirit of retribution.
Utterly wrong. It is perfectly possible to become initiated in as many mutually friendly cults as one can afford, without _any_ interference of retribution spirits. This is _not_ possible for Lord membership. If you need an example, look at Bolthor Hairybreeks, King of the Bilini.
>C>> I think associate cults were created to address this exact point.
>J> The published lists don't answer my questions.
> Yes that is true, but making up new myths to explain the relationships
> seems less invasive than redoing the whole cult structure! In your
> example: does the fellow really NEED any magic from these other gods?
He'd need ploughing magic or Bless Crops, Hide Wealth to ensure the safety of the community's wealth, and whatever personal magic an Orlanthi needs to fend for himself and his family.
> I don't see that he does. In that case with regard to those gods he
> wishes to venerate/placate he can act as a lay worshipper. Also your
> point above about: "affects his soul, spirit... afterlife," applies.
> Is this guy really going to have his "soul, spirit..." affected by a
> arbitrarily large number of gods?
I see his afterlife as a member of Orlanth's Stead, where all of these deities dwell.
> Initiates "...pledge themselves
> to the focus of a single divine entity." (CoP 7)
I can't say when initiates to more than one cult first occured in RQ, but they are present in Griffin Mountain, so this is no RQ3 innovation.
> J> In Orlanthi society: if you are a male, act like Orlanth, if a
> J> female, like Ernalda. If you are a plowman, act like Barntar, if a
> J> charioteer, like Mastakos. If you're a warrior, act like one of the
> J> following: Orlanth, Humakt, Heler, Elmal, the Thunder Brothers,
> J> Urox, any greater hero.
> Well I'd agree that the default if you're not an initiate of another
> cult is 'act like Orlanth', but if you are a trickster would you still
> act like Orlanth? <NO> How about if you're a Storm Bull? <NO>
> So basically Orlanth would have almost all the people as lay members
As associates, at least. As a Storm Bull, you'd still reply to clan structure, clan laws etc. like all Orlanthi. You're set apart as special hirdman, but while your drunkenness, upsetting behaviour and wanton cruelty is recognized, in all other regards you are expected to function as a member of the society laid out by Orlanth.
As a Eurmali, you need to swear allegiance to an Orlanthi, and follow his orders in a way most amusing and disturbing (e.g. by ignoring them), but Eurmal isn't an original member of Orlanth's stead, he became so after the LBQ.
> (after all... does the average farmer need Divine Magic?)
Yes. Bless Crops is essential for economy ever since Genert died. And a single acolyte of the Grain Goddess can only cast so many points as she has, plus one more for each two days. If she had to provide all spells for say 50 steads answering to her shrine, each demanding one or two points of Bless Crops, the last of these would receive their blessing when the harvest is in. This is why farmers need reusable Bless Crop spells, if only regained every second year (allowing for failed ceremony rolls).
> and only exceptional types become initiated at all.
This contradicts most sources. Only extremely unexceptional individuals (trollkin) regularly turn up as lay members.
> Well, my impression of Orlanthi culture was that it was looser than
> 'you are required to do what the master does'. Who is the
> master? Exactly how does this bit of social analysis relate?
Your sworn leaders. Read KoS, report on the Orlanthi, for details.
If you ask the elders, Orlanthi society is as stiff as Dara Happan
protocol. Luckily, the elders are just one facet of the society.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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