From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Date: Wed 25 May 1994 - 01:29:42 EEST
David Hall:
> I stand by Nick in his views that "the idea that all Malkioni saints are
> recognised and worshipped by all of the sects (is) ludicrous, and will not
> countenance it."
So do I, but I suspect the controversy isn't so much about the "all", as "how many".
Sandy:
> >[...] Clearly, there are no "false" saints, especially since any saint
> >must gain his powers from the Invisible God.
> This would seem to me to make the beliefs of the worshippers of the various
> sects of Malkionism irrelevant (and merely game contructs).
[...]
> As long as you worship from the Standard List of Saints you are fine
> and dandy.
Personally, I don't think the sects even agree as to _how_ to worship saints, much less exactly who's on the list. On one extreme, we have the henotheistic-style types, who worship "saints" as others would gods (or as Joerg suggests, gods _as_ Saints), ranging via the quasi-cultish Saint worship of most Hrestoli, and the more "lip-service" worship of others, where only special sorcery would be granted by a saint, to the other extreme of hard-core Rokari, who reject all active worship of saints, deeming that they have now gone to Solace, can't therefore manifest any legitimately Invisible Goddish powers, and so any entity claiming to do so is obviously a False God masquerading as a saint.
As the the Very Reverend Doctor Eeven Bayslee of the Tiskos Free Unitarian Church of Saint Rokar, spiritual mentor to the "Felster says No!" movement, would say (and indeed, regularly does, and six times on Clayday): "Episcopal idolators!"
> I wonder
> if a Galvosti who has Gerlant as his patron saint gets magic, or is he
> denied this because he is of a "false" and fringe sect?
He probably doesn't. His religion may well still "acknowledge" St. Gerlant, though, to some degree, and in some capacity.
> Gosh! What about the Castle Coasters - they think there is a fifth caste!
They do? What's the story here? What is it, even?
> In Glorantha belief and faith lend substance to religion. The Galvosti
> believe that tapping non-malkioni is correct, and is Malkion's and the
> Invisible God's commandment. And so it is, for they believe it.
<ripple of applause runs through the audience>
> Saint Rokar, who who
> instituted the caste immobilty of the Rokari, is not recognised by the
> Hrestoli.
I'm not sure I agree with this, for reasons given by others, but I think David is correct, at least, to "get down to cases". We won't get very far trying to decide what every sect believes about every saint, all in the one breath, but if we consider each such on its putative merits, we might get somewhere, if only something concrete to flame each other about.
> There are some who may try and claim that there is only one true Invisible
> God from whom all powers come. This is false and it is true. It is false
> since the powers are different for each sect, as different as their
> theological doctrines, and thus the source is surely different.
You mean Saint-granted powers, or the clerical magic of the IG, to wit, sorcery? If the latter, I don't think Malkioni believe sorcery is granted directly by the IG, but rather, it's that form of magic arising from the natural world which has been ordained as being "proper".
> If only we can all get together,
> thrash out our minor disagreements, and in the Holy Spirit of the
> Compromise, found a United Church of Malkion!
The Compromise? Clearly a crypto-Sytgianist. Burn, baby, burn.
> Join us at the 7th Ecclesiastical Council of Malkion at Sog City University
> in Storm Season 1625 and together we will forge a new creed. One for all
> and all have Won!
Talk about advertising on the stable door after the horse has been flogged off at the stud market.
Alex.
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