From: alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk
Date: Wed 25 May 1994 - 19:56:49 EEST
Joerg:
> Read KoS, page 54, last paragraph:
> "The Elder Gods were attributes and attitudes. They included
> Maker and Grower," [...]
> And that book treats _mainstream_ Orlanthi!
Oops. These damn God Learners, they get everywhere... ;-)
> Let me state again: I dont want to muck up anyone's Glorantha.
Nor I: but to insist on a One True World would almost certainly be to do so.
> To be honest, I feel a bit abused.
I've no idea what's being objected to here: the fact of my quibbling with your picture of Heortland, the manner of my doing it, or my perceiced "agenda" in doing so. If you feel I've been personally objectionable in what I've said, let's take that thought to e-mail, or to over a beer at Convulsion, which you can reserve the right to pour over me, if push comes to shove.
> > That's begging the question. They are _thanes_, who just happen to be
> > called knights, according to the source.
Eh? Must I, given that it's taken a whole other thread to try to do so? Let me try to restate myself, in the unlikely hope that it'll help: "Hendriki knights are not so much Western Knights, forming a distinct, noble, class of often land-holding warriors, but are a modification of the Orlanthi status of weaponsthane, having adopted some of the paraphenalia of the former, but remaining, fundamentally, simply one of the classes of freemen." If you're implying the two are the same thing, one wonders why G:G bothers to make the distinction.
> Knighthood is a remarkably religious concept, with initiation <he said
> initiation! throw the stones> vigils, pompous ceremony, idealistic
> codes of honour and all that stuff.
Or not, as the case may be.
> > We're talking about mass conversion here, not covert, residual sects.
> Not conversion. More an add-on.
If you add on enough stuff that it begins to be incompatible with the original religion, it's more like a conversion, to my mind.
> > I think we (sort of) agreed several messages ago about Malkionised
> > overlords; I think the _bulk_ of Heortlanders are still recognisable as
> > Orlanthi, though. e.g., would see being a sorceror/wizard as being
> > incompatible with most cult vows.
> This is the point where we part company. Utterly. And where I won't under
> any circumstance refute my views. Rather I'd quit this forum.
Is this a complaint about the thumbscrews I've been secretly employing on you to make you do so, or just a statement that there's no point in me trying to change your mind? Can I still try to change (if necessary) everyone else's? If you think I'm wrong, and wish to point out why, fine. If you think I'm wrong, and don't, equally fine. If you think I'm wrong, and should therefore belt up, less fine.
An unfortunate tendancy of this discussion (and yes, The Other One), is to get bogged down in interpreting the care(ful|less)ly ambiguous Oracular Pronouncements of The Stafford of Oakland. This should not be taken to mean that I (at least) think this is the only, or the best, way to think about Glorantha, much less defend one's thinking. On the other hand, if I'm told I have to lump something because Mr. Greg Says So, then it's not unreasonable to argue that Mr. Greg _doesn't_ say so, if I understand him not to. Not, I hasten to add, that Joerg has conducted the debate in those terms, but some of the dirty in-fighting that takes place on the Daily in general often seems to carry this as an overtone.
At no point have I demanded that Joerg desist from posting his Aeolian church material, "admit" that it's wrong, change it to suit me, or any such thing. I, personally, don't think (on the basis of what's been said so far) that I'd use the material as it currently stands, but that could be said of unending reams of "official" material.
> The Ditali Orlanthi have no problems at all that their lords are
> Malkionized, and would be hard put to find a reason why to burn all
> wizards
We were talking, in the matter of burning wizards/sorcerors about the relationship between "pure" Orlanthi (we specifically said "Sartarites") and the Aeolians, not that within Heortland. I have no difficulty in imagining a Malkioni ruling class and an Orlanthi people, and I don't think it requires that their religions be merged, or that one be forced on the other group, although mutual influence is obviously likely.
What I'm skeptical about, in the particular case of Heortland, is half the populace using sorcery, complete with Invisible Goddish rationale for doing so, and being blithely accepted by all and sundry as pure-of-heart Orlanthi.
> Still Alex, in X-RQ-ID: 4105
> > Head Heretic Hnick Hbrooke.
> >> I'm not convinced of it, but I did find another one in Glorantha.
> > Hbah! That's a Trinity?
> It's a trinity in one of the senses as I used it in my Aeolian write-up.
You seem to have mistaken me for someone who disapproves of Trinities (in Glorantha). I was merely jeering (mainly for effect) at Nick's example. If this is the sort of "abuse" I'm subjecting you to, perhaps _I_ had better leave the list, since I'm not sure I can guarantee (or want to) to not do similarly again...
Alex.
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