From: CULLEN O'NEILL (cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com)
Date: Wed 25 May 1994 - 13:53:43 EEST
Devin Cutler in X-RQ-ID: 4112
D>Why do I need to be creative about the rules? Why do I need to be D>creative about cults even? I prefer to concentrate my creativity on D>scenarios and the role-playing session.
You don't. But if other people wish to be, are you saying that they should take it somewhere else?
My basic feeling for this 'scholars vs. gamers' argument is that it is the result of the anger many feel over Greg making changes to the game world. It isn't fair to direct this vituperation at people who are merely reacting to the cause of your anger.
Certainly the reason there is more 'scholarly' discussion is because more people who are into this sort of thing are posting. I for one welcome any posts that contibute a new idea... I pesonally post what I'm thinking, and what I'm thinking is often prompted by what I see in the Daily. If people want more posts on 'scenarios and the role-playing' then they should post them. This is not a closely moderated group... and if people want to change the focus they should post the types of messages they want to see. Then other people will respond and if the majority of people want more gaming then the list will move in that direction.
B>This, I think, is my basic problem with your argument. It seems to me B>that, from a cosmological viewpoint, there is less difference between B>initiation to three gods (or seven) and initiation to twenty (or even B>1000) than there is between initiation to only one god and initiation B>to three. If you can connect to more than one god with a single B>initiation, then the exact number more than one is a minor point. And B>it has been shown on Glorantha that you *can* connect to more than one B>deity with a single initiation. So, q.e.d. pantheon initiation (given B>my stated assumption) is possible in a Gloranthan millieu.
The examples cited are not good ones.
The Cult of the Bloody Tusk isn't worshipping three 'gods' in any case, whatever its synthetic origins. One god, one hero, and one darkness spirit are listed in the write-up.
The Lunar cults cannot be used to generalize for more 'normal' cults
(generalizing is dangerous anyway, Devin's calling out the Inquisitors
as we speak....). 'Normal' cults don't use sorcery either are we going
to use the Red Goddess write-up to change this. Lunars break rules for
the #@)) of it anyway... surely their 'freedom' from the 'normal' form
can't be used to alter the 'normal' form... of course 'normal' is only a
'useful GL construct' but lets not drop these altogether until Greg
makes us.
B>This still leaves the secondary question to address, that is, why is
B>it desired? I can speak only for myself, but the reason I first
B>brought up this can of wyrms was this. Given what I have read, it
B>seems that there are two basic ways of participating in worship in
B>Glorantha. One type is very similar to what worshippers appear to do
B>on Earth; go through some sort of ritual, chanting, singing,
B>gesturing, etc. at all the right parts, and fervently (or not)
B>offering your prayers to a transcendant deity. The other type is
B>familiar (perhaps) only to mystics on Earth; one is actually
B>transported by the ritual to take part in mythic actions of a very
B>immanent deity. These are what we respectively call lay worship and
B>initiate worship.
B>By all accounts, lay worshippers only see and hear the rituals, but do
B>not percieve or take part in the magical aspects of the ceremony
B>(though they do perhaps see that magical events are occuring).
B>However, initiates of associate religions *do* take part in the
B>magical part of the worship, filling the roles of their deity in the
B>reenacted myth. Thus, my answer to Cullen O'Neill's question in
B>X-RQ-ID: 4109 ("So those who have dedicated their lives to Orlanth
B>worship Ernalda better than the most dedicated laywoman?") is an
B>unequivocal *yes*! Unless and until the Ernaldan initiates she will
B>only "see through a glass darkly"; the Orlanthi already sees "face to
B>face", albeit from a different perspective.
Ok, this is a convincing argument. I give on the issue of this... but if a peson is effective as a worshipper when they're an initiate of a friendly diety, then why is there a need for pantheon initiation? Like you said from a guest initiate sees the ritual from a different perspective! That of his diety.
B>In the current rules, there are *only* two states of initiation, lay B>and initiate (lumping all the acolytes/priests/lords in with initiates B>for this discussion). This begs the question, what is the iniatory B>status *relative to Ernalda* of all of the Orlanthi, Uroxi, etc. B>taking part in an Ernaldan High Holy Day service. They are not B>initiated to Ernalda, neither are they just lay members, as they B>participate much more fully. Yes, they are associates, but unless we B>call "associate" a third initiatory state, this is just handwaving. B>And if we *do* make associate another state of initiation, well then B>fine, I'll also call this a low initiate and I am satisfied. And if B>Alex (or anyone) asks me to what are they initiated that is associated B>with all the rest, well, I have shown above that one may initiate to B>many deities with a single initiation; one initiates to the "gods of B>my ancestors", i.e. the clan's gods. And if that is still B>unsatisfactory, they I suppose the clan wyter will do. It would be B>associated to all of the other deities worshipped by the clan, n'est B>pas?
When one is initiated to a diety one becomes dedicated to that diety's viewpoint, and begins trying to become like that diety to the extent possible. In some way the Initiation must be at base a transformative experience (otherwise why the big change in afterlife/Divine magic?). This gets lost with pantheon initiation. The hero ceases trying to become like his/her god(dess) and becomes, well... kinda generic. I think this is way to high a price to pay. I think that initiates of one god therefor serve to help the Ernalda service by being representatives of their gods at the holy day services (which might be put on by the whole community, but each initiate is participating as a representative of his god). Does this work for you?
B>Now, to bring this, so to speak, back to earth, and the real reason B>*why* I want to do this, is that it enables me to GM better. I have B>the refugee survivors of a clan that has just arrived in the Rubble B>from Sartar; there are a number of different gods that this clan B>worships, but with over half the clan dead (that's why they're B>refugees), they are too few to provide any magic to my PCs unless most B>of the clan members take part in most of the worship services. B>Thinking about this, it makes sense for most clans, and so that's why B>I speculated on the general case. And now, we (i.e. my players and B>myself) can have fun roleplaying the different PCs & NPCs taking part B>in each other's worship, which opens up many, many roleplaying B>possibilities.
B>Anyway, that's my view of my Personal Glorantha Heroquest.
Thanks, it was very thought provoking and changed my mind on at least one issue.
M> Cullen O'Neill: M> LBQ: Leg Before Quicket? Lyndon Baines Quonset? Litterarum M>Baccalaureus something-beginning-with-Q?
Well seriously... I couldn't figure out what it meant. I really mean it, no humour involved.
Cullen
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