From: boris (mabeyke@batman.b11.ingr.com)
Date: Thu 26 May 1994 - 22:11:36 EEST
Boris here, once again.
In X-RQ-ID: 4175, David Dunham comments:
>Boris presented the Temple of the Black Wind. It seems awfully _organized_
>for an Orlanthi organization (or are Heortlanders far more densely
>populated than I picture?). It appears to be somewhat pyramidal in nature,
>how many people are members? If there are only two people per member at 6th
>Circle and below, that gives the organization 442 members. If the pyramid
>is 1:7 all the way down, then there are over 137000 members!
Uh, that's much more organized than I had pictured it. There are as many 5th Circle members as have progressed that far; same for 4th, etc. I suspect there are more people in the second circle than the first, as once someone has been sized up regarding their feeling toward Lunars, they would either be advanced ASAP or quietly eased out. It is not a "cell" type of organization as in _The_Moon_Is_A_Harsh_Mistress_ (great name for a Danfive Xaron adventure, no?), as I believe that *is* too organized.
There are seven 6th Circle members, as well as seven circles, simply because seven is a magically potent number in Glorantha (7 Lightbringers, 7 Sacred Ancestors, 7 Mothers, etc.). Thinking on it some more, I will probably change the number to five; these plus the grandmaster and Dehumbrol make up seven, keeping to the magic number better.
Okay, how about these: Ancestor Worship, Chalandra and Aurelion.
>... but if a peson is effective as a worshipper when they're
>an initiate of a friendly diety, then why is there a need for
>pantheon initiation? Like you said from a guest initiate sees the
>ritual from a different perspective! That of his diety.
If there were some manner given for the necessary progression through cults (i.e. maiden inits Voria, when older inits Ernalda, when old inits Asrelia) as well as changing cults due to changing circumstances (a youth inits Orlanth because that's what everybody does; when he get's his growth he decides he's better suited to Urox) then much of the need would be eliminated. If someone is initiated to the gods of one's ancestors, then this is easy.
And, as a low initiate, one would take the perspective of Vingkot, or Flesh Man, or Grandfather Mortal, etc., in the reenactments.
>When one is initiated to a diety one becomes dedicated to that diety's
>viewpoint, and begins trying to become like that diety to the extent
>possible. In some way the Initiation must be at base a transformative
>experience (otherwise why the big change in afterlife/Divine magic?).
>This gets lost with pantheon initiation. The hero ceases trying to
>become like his/her god(dess) and becomes, well... kinda generic. I
>think this is way to high a price to pay.
This is a valid point; I could say that they try to be like Vingkot, etc., but these in turn were emulating Orlanth their Lord. So it becomes a once removed emulation, and as such is watered down, and perhaps too high a price.
> I think that initiates of one
>god therefor serve to help the Ernalda service by being representatives
>of their gods at the holy day services (which might be put on by the
>whole community, but each initiate is participating as a representative
>of his god). Does this work for you?
I can live with this if, as I said above, there were some means of moving from cult to cult without penalizing the initiate. For me, this makes more sense if there is some overarching framework to move within. I certainly think that if one turns from the "gods of one's ancestors" to a deity of another pantheon, then one must pony up the POW (and be subject to spirits of reprisal, etc); but as long as one is loyal to a pantheon, intercult mobility should be possible. The youths and maidens would then all be initiated to Orlanth or Ernalda, and can change if desired as they go through life changes. If another piece of one's soul needs to be cast off whenever one does this, it doesn't work for me.
>Well... I suppose it does help in the way you speak. But couldn't you
>have just as rich experiences with everybody participating in all the
>rituals as lay members/guest initiates and when there is a lack of a
>_____(fill in blank) worshipper the community must seek out a priestess
>(or initiate any way) to fill in that role at the ritual to make the
>land fertile or whatever. I see alot of interaction between the cults
>without any need for multiple initiation.
Unfortunately, some number (seven times seven times two, by KOS) of *initiate* level worshippers are needed to recover magics. Since there are barely 100 survivors of the Cosstak clan of the Torkani tribe after the Telmori massacre of 1616, they need as many as possible to be initiates of one of the clan's gods, just for the major cults. They still need to seek out priest(esse)s for any of the lesser cults. But I saw no hope of clan survival without at least magical self suffiency for the major cult. Playing the slow decline of a clan into extinction is not something either my players or myself would enjoy; I hope to play through their recovery and return them to really put the hurt on the Telmori, just in time for Argrath to come and force a truce.
(BTW, this history is just my world; I claim no hidden knowledge).
>Thanks, it was very thought provoking and changed my mind on at least
>one issue.
I have to say that I also am brought to a point of compromise. Is my proviso acceptable? (Even if not, I think I've said enough on this topic.)
>Martin in X-RQ-ID: 4121
>M> LBQ: Leg Before Quicket? Lyndon Baines Quonset? Litterarum
>M>Baccalaureus something-beginning-with-Q?
>
>Well seriously... I couldn't figure out what it meant. I really
>mean it, no humour involved.
LightBringers Quest.
Quick and easy answer: estimate how many total MPs are donated by the Bathurians to the victory shrine per week, and divide some fraction of that among the PCs as a form of recovering, focusless MP storage. If there are 500 worshippers each giving one MP a week, then maybe 100 MPs a week would be accessable to the PCs. The amount available would fluctuate somewhat randomly (due to other festivals, crises occurring, etc.) This could be a single pool that they all draw on as wished, or each could have an individual pool. The first would, IMO, be more fun ("Gunther, you dog, you cast Fireblade ten times this week; there wasn't enough left for my Heal spell!").
Not so quick or easy answer: if there was some particular feat that any of the PCs did while on this quest, then give them something similar as a heroic ability they could perform once a week or so. Say if one of them had had fought a great troll and won, he could call on the troll's strength once a week; another could do something else based on their particular feat. In this case, the items left should somehow represent the feat performed.
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