From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Thu 26 May 1994 - 22:46:14 EEST
Alex in X-RQ-ID: 4167
> I quote Joerg:
>> First of all, I believe that there are a lot of henotheist churches, >> or at least sects (subcults), in Ralios. Some are Stygian, some are >> Cthonic, some are Aeolian, and some are Solar. A lot of these have animal >> saints replacing the old Hsunchen deities, IMO.
> Indeed, there are many henotheist churches, but there is one (apparently)
> _called_ "the Henotheistic Church". Whether it's in any way a unitary
> religion I have no idea.
I have the idea of lots of local variations, a lot of them taking one of the ruling gods of Ralian 1st or 2nd Age (Basmol, Worlath, Ehilm, Argan Argar, Tanier, Felster, Doskior, or an Earth deity) into the centre of their worship. This is my idea, I don't play in Ralios (yet), take it or leave it.
> But it seems natural to me to suppose that,
> generally speaking, each sect or religion uses the term "saint" to indicate
> whether it considers an entity is a "lesser" one, comparable to the mortal
> saints of orthodox Malkionism, or a "greater" one, mentionable in the same
> breath as "real" gods, like the IG. (Just not "I".)
The greater saints of Malkionism (Arkat, Malkion, Zzabur) are definitely of the same stature as even major gods (Kyger Litor, Zorak Zoran and Zzabur are mentioned in one breath in the I Fought We Won myth in Troll Pak).
> I'm not enamored of
> the idea of all sects using the term for everyone in sight, regardless
> about their beliefs about them.
Nor am I. That's why I welcomed the expression "angelic being". Would this council of language artist spew forth a few more such terms for me humble practitioner of Tradetalk?
>>> Using the same term for obscure heroes >>> and major deities doesn't really inspire confidence in claims that this >>> _isn't_ a questioning of the importance of the latter, though.
>> Obscure heroes like Arkat and major deities like Minlister? Come on.
> Come on, indeed. Arkat isn't an obscure hero, and Minlister isn't a deity
> I've heard of. Could you please disagree with the point I was making, not
> the straw man I wasn't? If you use one set of terminology for one group of
> gods (the Aeolian Trinity) and another for a second group, (the Aeolian
> saints), then you're implying that each is different from the other
> group, and similar to members of the same group. That is, Issaries and
> <local obscure hero> are "just" saints, while Orlanth and the Invisible
> God are "proper members of the trinity". I don't say this structure isn't
> possible, or even unlikely, generally speaking, but where it does occur,
> it's likely to be regarded with suspicion by "orthodox" worshippers of,
> say, Issaries.
As I said above, Arkat is greater in stature and importance than many important deities. Orlanth, Yelm, Magasta, Pamalt, Lodril, Mother Earth and the Red Goddess are the only deities I would place above all other deities. Sorry, but Humakt, Lhankor Mhy, Kyger Litor or Aldrya aren't that fundamental, even though they hold a critical Secret Power. Arkat, Humakt and Yanafal Tarnils aren't too different in their powers, the only thing to make Humakt stand out is his possession of the Death Rune.
Most of the Lunar Pantheon consists of apotheosized humans. So does part of the Aeolian array of "Saints" or whatever I can call them in English as a term that won't offend anyone. (This actually made the Aeolian Church of Heortland so palatable to the Lunars that they renounced a lot of the restrictions Richard the Tigerhearted's Rokari clergy had imposed on them in a wave of iconoclasm. Or at least this will happen when my campaign reaches 1620 and Fazzur will free Hendrikiland from the Western oppressors.)
> If you insist on picking holes in your own divine/mortal distinction, then
> substitute "considered important" and "considered not so important".
Ok. Orlanth is considered Most Important, and never is called a Saint.
All other entities possessing divinity, be it through mortal action, apotheosis (which to me is another word for being recognized as a saint) or divine birth, are ordered along their importance.
most important (without capitals) are the Lightbringers, Ernalda, Malkion, Hrestol and Arkat.
not so important are Dormal (the Hendriki are no naval power), Gerlant Flamesword, Talor, Harmast, Minlister, Voria, Maran Gor, Babeester Gor, Choralinthor.
just present in the catalogue are Valkaro, Sofala, and other entities figuring in this myth or that.
>>> Actually, I have very few objections to the Aeolian Church, apart from where >>> you've put it.
>> I didn't put it there.
> <sigh> I can't help thinking this isn't a response to what I said, but
> let me rephrase more carefully: "I have very few objections to a religion
> existing in Glorantha with a theology and structure like that you propose
> for the Aeolian Church, but I do not think that such a church would be
> widely worshipped in Heortland."
Not in northern Heortland, and only by part of the populace in southwestern Heortland. It's an Arkati group, and there is another Arkati great temple in Heortland noone has taken offense to! There are still theists among the Hendriki, as well, but they don't play the leading tune right now. There have been even more theists before they began to emigrate into Dragon Pass and to form the Quivini alliance. All I say is that in the cities of Hendrikiland the Arkati creed of the Aeolians has survived from the end of the First Age. Together with the concept of knights as the lords' special force of fighting retainers, even though they look and behave different from Loskalmi or Ralian knights.
I don't know whether the masses have been widely accepting the Aeolian creed all the time. I'd guess they did so during the Second Age, when the neighbouring Empire of Sea and Land did so in Slontos and colonies as well. This might have changed with the downfall of Jadnor, Lylket and the Clanking City. But there were Hendriki participating in the fight against the Clanking city (and I will develop a martyr Aeolian bishop who fell during the siege). In the 3rd Age, the Malkioni influences could have lain low, until by contact with the Trader Princes they became more popular again. But it has been present all the time, and it has left tracks in history here and there.
When I first heard of the Aeolian Church of Heortland (it wasn't my idea, honestly) I had much the same objections. I checked with a few high-ranking coryphees for Gloranthan knowledge, and found that it existed. So I incorporated it in a passive role into my first (quite successful) Glorantha scenario ever. I just hinted at what went on. Whenever I looked at the idea of knightly, Creator-acknowledging Hendriki later, the idea made an evil (?) sense, so I accepted and embraced it.
Later I decided to start a Gloranthan campaign. It is a playtest campaign for RQ4: AiG. I needed to work out the exact nature of the church. I collected official material, and unpublished material as well. I incorporated all myths I could find.
I took great pains _not_ to contradict any published nor unpublished source I was aware or made aware of. IMO I didn't. Don't.
The stuff I'm collecting and writing might contradict some campaigns some people have played in Heortland. But then how many Praxian campaigns have been contradicted by the River of Cadles supplement?
If you have notes about your campaign events in Heortland, I'd be pleased to work them in and produce a consistent version. If you want to co-work with me on the Hendriki-Pak, you're welcome. My email address ought to be known by now. (If not, look at the .sig)
Yes, I want to try and have my stuff published. Preferably by Avalon Hill. Else in German by Deutsche RuneQuest-Gesellschaft. I see this as my opportunity to contribute to the RuneQuest-Renaissance. What do you other people out there do? Where's your contribution?
This is one of the results of Gaming Evangelization David Cheng correctly asks for. Get at your keyboards, and do some work.
> I said nothing about a religious war (between who?); clearly my occassional
> attempts at levity via stake-sharpening remarks has either fallen rather
> flat, or is being actively misconstrued.
Probably a little of both. Have a look a your own contributions to the Daily, though, this is not a technique I have a monopoly in. Nya.
> I've no idea, off the top of my head, what political situation pertains in
> Otkorion, but I certainly don't think "conversative" Orlanthi, and full-blown
> henotheists (of the "St. Orlanth" persuasion, as it were) consider themselves
> co-religionists. (Or should that be "co-cultists"?) Similarities of
> religious belief can be cause for either buddy-buddy ecumenicalism, or
> for outright hostility.
If you have a common enemy, like the threatening Lunar Empire, the Praxian Beast Riders, or the atheist scum of God Forgot, or a common lord, like the Pharaoh (called Bretwalda in my game), I see a good probability (close to 100%) that the theists and the Aeolians feel they have a common stand against all foreign influences.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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