From: Nick Brooke (100270.337@CompuServe.COM)
Date: Fri 27 May 1994 - 23:50:45 EEST
> Orlanth, Yelm, Magasta, Pamalt, Lodril, Mother Earth and the Red Goddess
> are the only deities I would place above all other deities.
Looks like you have an elemental fixation, to me. Three obvious questions:
(1) Why Lodril? (2) Where's Uleria? (3) What about the Powers?
The 'orthodox' list of greater gods (all of the 'current Rune-owners') has nouns, verbs and adjectives (elements, powers and forms, call them what you will). If the world were 'static', making elementals more 'important' than gods of power and form would make some sense. As it is, your categorisation seems to imply a harmonious ordering of Glorantha with no change/develop- ment/conflict conducted along other than elemental lines. A bit too simple for me to accept. (Especially coming from a self-confessed God Learner!).
An evil thought struck me on the train today:
Are Ralzakark's castrated Humakti broos getting the idea of Humakti eunuchs from some far-off variant of the Humakt cult, and applying it to their own culture? Where in Glorantha would Humakti eunuchs come from? (Maybe this is something I didn't know about Carmania, until today; I'd interpreted their "Maran Gor worship" differently...).
> The pre-Renaissance persons may have believed their God was active, but
> they never saw such activity. Physical proof is a wonderful motivater.
The historical evidence is against you, here. For some reason, people these days only pay attention to the parts of old books they find "credible", and dump the rest. So, although I could find you countless examples of pre- Renaissance persons _absolutely_certain_ they had witnessed miracles, you (and many others) would dismiss these out of hand as fiction, fantasy, mass hypnosis. (As do I). But if you're living in a culture where it is accepted that miracles happen, and magic works, and Gods are active and intervene in the world, you'll act a certain way. We know from the Real World what such cultures look like. Modern historians can hypothesise that these cultures were full of hypocrites and didn't believe a word of what they professed, but proof is lacking. Certainly, some ancient, mediaeval and modern people were willing to die for their beliefs. Looks pretty sincere to me. We know too that, presented with the unambiguous Word of God, people will interpret it in different ways. We know that there is no unified Truth in Glorantha any more. So why should we design an inhuman, bland and unentertaining synthetic world when there are so many inspiring examples, and Gloranthan excuses, for mixing 'chrome' or 'dirt' into the functioning magical ecology of Glorantha?
The phrase "SimGlorantha" springs to mind. It's not what I want. Though it would be interesting to see one working...
Anyway, all HeroQuesting is subjective: I'd have thought everyone knew that by now... (but see below).
> In addition, even in pre-Renaissance times their were many, especially
> amongst the learned or the nobility or the well-to-do, who, while paying
> lip service to belief in a God or gods, did not truly believe in such.
> Certainly, the Romans were a good example of this.
Some Romans used their religion pragmatically. The evidence suggests there are Gloranthans who do the same. Most Roman authors who disdained the old belief systems did so because they had adopted new and more sophisticated philosophies: rather more like an Orlanthi becoming Illuminated, or joining a Malkioni Church, or whatever. Pure atheism is rarer.
Why, I wonder, do the Gloranthan gods have spirits of reprisal?
> I do not gainsay Nick's gaming contributions. I thought his scenario in
> TOTRM 11 (I hope I got the issue # right) was great!
Not mine, alas. But thanks, anyway! <g>
Sandy wrote:
> Every worship service IS a heroquest, but this tends to unify the cult,
> not divide it. Most heroquesting does not change the nature of reality,
> but rather confirms it. Only creative heroquesting as was done by Arkat
> and the God Learners alters Things As They Are.
I prefer to believe that HeroQuesting is a subjective experience in which the quester usually encounters those otherworldly entities he expects to meet. Traditional heroquesters work in this way, too: identifying a known myth that parallels the current situation (e.g: Sheng Seleris in a Lunar Hell is like Yelm in the Underworld), and taking the appropriate remedial/ ritual actions. ("These conversions to Malkionism are like a spiritual drought in our land: I shall do battle with this new Daga, and overcome him!"). And the kind of ambushes that can be sprung are self-generated (as when Kallyr Starbrow, who would presumably denounce the Lunars as Devil- worshippers, meets Lunar heroquesters rather than the 'safe' wicker Wakboth she expects to defeat on her LBQ): you allow others into your myth by casting them as ritual foes, but then you have to put up with whatever they can do to you.
I think creative heroquesters discover new and plausible connections in Gloranthan mythology, which they teach their followers, who, believing, reinforce them. That's the Arkati model. An alternative method used by the God Learners (and perhaps by Harrek the Berserk) is to convince yourself (and the world) that you can do *anything*, then go out there and prove it.
I have a Harrek-theory, too. We know he was asleep for a century or so. We know heroquesting is a dreamlike state. Is it not possible that Harrek was passively exploring the Hero Plane for a century -- that the enchantment of the Ban hit him at just the right moment in his sleep-state? Seems the most subtle and acceptable explanation for his unique prowess as an unconscious heroquester (i.e: not backed by any particular mythos, cult or ideology, as far as we know). He would intuitively know what to do while heroquesting, while remaining intellectually incapable of explaining his knowledge. <g>
> I view the Malkioni religions as having more kinship with the various
> Hellenistic philosphies than with any Earthly religions per se.
The Lunar attempt to Illuminate the whole population of Glorantha is thus rendered suitably unique...
On which subject: Western Saints have haloes. Illuminates have haloes. Is there some connection?
> I _think_ Saints are those who have broken down the barriers and
> operate on 'both sides' of reality (in the West). They have great
> power for good or ill. The Immanent IG sects would think that they
> have achieved partial union with the Godhead while still living.
I like this theory of Paul's a lot, and the supporting arguments that go with it. Why not post them here?
> Anyway, I have a LOT of stuff on this subject, and I don't think everyone
> would be interested. Perhaps a Malkion mailing list would be appropriate
> for the real fanatics? We don't want to annoy people with excessive
> 'scholarly' discussions in a public forum, so perhaps we should retreat
> to the catacombs of email.
My opinion is mixed.
(i) Everyone "ought" to be interested. Do it in public. I've always been against the idea of splitting the Daily formally. (And, as some of you know, receptive to private email dialogues sparked off by Daily comments). (ii) David, Kevin and I are brim-full of the ideas that went into How the West was One, and I don't think I should let myself be lured into public speculations about Malkionism until after the Con.
I would hate to miss out on the dialogue, but won't have much to contribute to it now.
THERE SHOULD BE MORE CATS IN GLORANTHA!
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