Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 06 Jun 1994, part 1

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From: DevinC@aol.com
Date: Tue 07 Jun 1994 - 03:42:26 EEST


Devin Cutler here:

Alex writes (forcing me to keep this debate public):

"Unfortunately for this argument, a "geas" doesn't mean a compulsion (outside
of D&D), and certainly not a non-magical one. Then again, I'm not sure what the justification for the use of the term in Glorantha and Shadowrun to mean "magical restriction" is, either, since the word simply means
"enchantment", according to my Gaelic dictionary."

Semantics, shemantics! I really don't care much about the possible misuse of s single word when everyone knows what I meant...so I'll just admit complete D&Dism and go home on this one...OK?

"

Much more helpful. I don't see the cynical, syncretic worship of the Roman empire of that period as being much different from that of the Lunar empire we know and loathe. Or the Orlanthi from the pagan tribes of northwest europe. (In the general manner of their worship, not the cultly or theological particulars.)"

Maybe this simply gets down to some a priori beliefs about divinity and people's potential reactions to divinity. I am working from two premises:

  1. The gods on Glorantha are more active and manifest more often, more overtly (i.e. provably), and more repeatedly than any Earthly deities. When I say this last sentence, I do not mean "than any Earthly deities ever did in Terran mythology", I am saying "than any Earthly deities ever REALLY did in any sort of verifiable sense". Now, I suppose we are heading into dangerous territory (i.e. do Terran gods (or God) really exist), and this is a subject that I would like to avoid.
  2. That assuming a person knows for a fact that a god exists and has direct effect on their lives/souls, that they would worship and revere such a god to a great extent.

Now, certainly, supply and demand have a sort of effect in Glorantha. The supply of deities to worship in Glorantha is much greater than most of earths (monotheistic) religions.

Therefore, I suppose Gloranthan worshippers can demand more of their gods than earthly worshippers can of their one Supreme Being, because if a Gloranthan doesn't like one god, he/she can simply worship another. In a Judeo/Christian mythos, you have no choice, it is worship THE GOD or burn in Hell.

Also, while in Glorantha the relationship between god and worshipper is a two-way street (i.e. the god gains something from the worshippers and vice versa), Terran monotheistic religions are more of a one-way street. Id est, worship of God is less a trade (of POW for benefits) and more of a parental type situation (i.e. love is a major factor).

The above two items might mitigate to some extent the devoutness of Gloranthans to their deities, but I still feel that this is far outweighed by the fact that:

  1. Every Gloranthan knows that there is an afterlife. They know it for certain. How? They can regularly talk to their ancestors, they SEE spirits, etc. While many on Earth claim to believe in an afterlife, few can really claim to believe it with the kind of non-faith intellectual proof that Gloranthans have.

Because there is an afterlife for certain, a lot of the uncertainty and doubt surrounding death is non-existent in Glorantha. IMO, when everyone KNOWS that heaven awaits them if they are devout, they are going to be much more eager to secure a place in that heaven. On Earth, many of us I propose are not as devout (as one of many reasons) because we are not sure what awaits us after death (if anything) so we tend to focus more on the here and now (i.e. we are more materialistc).

2) Once again, the same holds true for powers/spells/miracles. Yes, people in pre-Renaissance Earth sometimes believed they saw miracles. But I submit that such sightings of miracles was not universal (i.e. everyone didn't see miracles and evidence of the divine power on a daily basis). In Glorantha it is.

I don't care how gullible and faith-full someone might be, hearing about a miracle second hand is not as effective as witnessing it firsthand or, better yet, performing it oneself.

"They believed they did, in many cases."

Not the entire population. I can't believe that more than 5% of the population ever believed that they saw a true and profound miracle.

"What constitutes a miracle is a
matter of interpretation."

Of course it is, but when miracles are universally accepted as reality, their existence becomes more concrete and the divinity that performed the miracles becomes more real.

" I don't think exact frequency is a particularly
hot issue. Mass guided teleportations get pretty old when you've seen a few, anyway."

True, but no matter how commonplace Guided Teleports get, everyone knows they come from Mastakos. No one on Glorantha believes the power comes from within.

"Universality of magic is no argument for a level of faith, or uniformity
of belief, in Glorantha unknown on earth."

Then maybe we should agree to disagree on this point. I have given my argument for this above.

 "After all, Gloranthans know that
people worshipping Bad Gods, and even no god at all, get magic, too."

Why does the fact that Bad Gods give magic mitigate the devoutness of Gloranthans?

Yes, Sorcerors get magic, but it is regarded as unholy and soul destroying. In any case, just because magic exists in a non-Divine form doesn't suddenly convince Gloranthans that their deities are impotent.

"Spirit

magic certainly isn't "evidence" of divinity of any sort, much less one who believes and promulgates his own GoG writeup chapter and verse. More like a kind of cultic Predecessor Worship."

Yes, but spirit magic does prove that the spirit world exists, that an afterlife exists, etc. Furthermore, Cult Spirits would tend to be a manifestation fo a god's powers. But in any case, so what? Divine Magic in and of itself is enough to prove the Gloranthan deities' manifestations.

 "Well then, that's no reliability at all, since the god could answer on whatever basis he feels like at that non-moment, not necessarily the letter of cult entrance requirements. "Yeah, sure, let him in. Looks okay from here. Gotta run, playing full contact golf with Heler in half a non-hour." Few actually specify "non-chaotic" as such, anyway."

Of course the god can answer any way he wants. But I was speaking "reliable" in the sense that reliable = what the god wants.

Regards,

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com

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