From: Sandy Petersen (sandyp@idcube.idsoftware.com)
Date: Thu 09 Jun 1994 - 10:59:33 EEST
Henk (who rarely posts) states:
>The simplest explanation I've ever heard about the difference
>between dogs and wolves is that dogs have been bred 'not to grow
>up'. A full-grown dog behaves like a wolf pup throughout all of
>its life.
I, too, have heard the neotony theory about dog behavior, and it's convincing. On the other hand, there are dogs which _do_ grow up (and get mean). Konrad Lorenz, the noted behaviorist, believed that dogs stem from _two_ root stocks -- the golden jackal and the wolf. He felt that all dogs are a mixture of the two personality types, but some tend towards one more than the other. His examples of "wolf" dogs are things like chows, malamutes, etc. which are all notoriously "one-man-dogs", bad around children, etc. "Jackal" dogs, much easier to handle, but correspondingly less loyal to their owner (i.e., they can switch owners during life) are things like collies, alsations, chihuahuas, etc. I've read that some modern students no longer accept the jackal/wolf theory, but I found it compelling. Even if there is no jackal (or no wolf) blood in modern dogs, the two personality mixtures seem to hold true.
Another thing to remember is that it is perfectly possible to breed personality traits into animals. The Hispanics have been doing it for decades with their fighting bulls. Harry Teasley, a friend of mine who raised bulldogs and told me more than you'd ever want to find out about the damn things, mentioned that before 1700, bulldogs were exceedingly vicious, tough, and tenacious. With the demise of bullbaiting, bulldogs almost went extinct, but a guy (whose name I don't recall) singlehandedly decided to try to save the breed. His technique was to try to keep all the bulldog traits _except_ viciousness. He succeeded, and today bulldogs are nice mild-mannered things, suitable for children. They're still tough and tenacious, and the worst possible news in a dog fight, but they're not mean.
Paul Honigmann remarks
>Roman Empire was affected by the success of the Chinese, generations
>before and thousands of miles away. Neither empire knew where the
>Huns went / came from. It struck me that if you were running a
>Kralorelan, Pentan or Redlands based campaign you could use this as
>background politics driving the nomads to invade the Redlands
A similar thing happened in North America during the colonial expanse westward. When the whites moved into western Pennsylvania, Ohio, west Virginia, etc., the Amerinds were forced west, and there was an extremely vicious series of hot little race wars between the newcomers and the old-time natives. The natives who were sitting quietly in Kentucky, only to be attacked wholesale by screaming hordes, were no doubt puzzled and confused by the whole thing. For that matter, the "screaming hordes" had had contact with white men and so had gunpowder, steel tomahawks, etc., And of course, in the middle of these wards, wandering around the fringers, trading, marrying your women, and looking friendly, you had white frontiersmen, harbingers of a dread future.
I like the idea of internal Pentan politics wreaking havoc somewhere miles away. In line with this, I have something I'd like to point out.
THE LUNAR EMPIRE CUTS ITS THROAT
Few more bitter enemies exist in Glorantha than the Prax
animal riders and the Pent horse barbarians. The traditional border
between the two is the Snow Line, which is a vague concept. Both
sides raid back and forth, trying to take over lands in the others'
domain. Of course, the border clans are mostly the weaker clans, as
otherwise they wouldn't be in such an undesirable area. The fighting
goes on and on.
Now, the Snow Line has been moving north for generations, to the detriment of the Pentans, and the benefit of the Praxians. Eventually, this may force the Pent nomads to seek green fields elsewhere. Where will they go? Not south -- that's where the pressure comes from. Not north. Not east -- the Kingdom of Ignorance? Don't make me laugh. They've got to go west, to the Redlands. Uh-oh.
Now, one may ask. Why is the Snow Line moving north. Very simply, because of the success of the Lunar cult of Kalikos Icebreaker. This cult has been weakening Valind for centuries, keeping him from battling over Peloria with his brother Orlanth. This, of course, weakens both Valind _and_ Orlanth (and other storm gods who'd have participated, too). One result is that there is less precipitation in the Rockwoods, and less cold winters. Another is that the Snow Line moves inexorably north. And another is that the horse barbarians are going to have to move west, away from Praxian pressure. Funny how things work out in the end.
Someone else says:
>> There is no way to DI out if the execution is performed on Sacred
>>Ground of a deity not of the character's creed.
Alex responds:
>Not true, actually.
PMichaels opines:
>I also think that at least two of the Genertelan gargoyle species
>are actually the remnants of Genert's Army.
Can't think of any reason why this would not be the case, though maybe not in the exact way you've laid out here. For one thing, IMO the Copper Sands are the remnants of the ordinary common folk, the humans, not some elite warrior force.
Loren Miller sez:
>Summing up, it seems to me that Loskalm is the land of Plato's
>Republic, where everything works perfectly, not a fantasy version of
>Mussolini's Italy.
My hero. I've noticed a definite tendency towards "revisionism" in the Digest ever since I first started writing here. In the early days of RQ, this revisionist tendency was portrayed by people who preferred running Lunar characters, even though the early CoP and other documents tended to portray the Lunars as "bad" guys. Nowadays it seems to take the form of demonizing various Gloranthan organizations which had heretofore not been portrayed as villainous.
Soon we'll see defenses of the heroic Brithini point of view.
Dave Gadbois:
>all the folks I know who are into Glorantha in a big way (even
>Sandy, who seems to "live" the world in a much more visceral sense
>than anyone else (even Greg) that I know) appear to use it as a
>sort of whetstone for honing earthly views.
Hmm. I guess I'll have to plead guilty on all charges.
>I never remember if it was Shavaya or Daruda who brought dragon
>magic to Kralorela.
Daruda.
Jardine mentions a blast from the past:
>In the centre of the Puzzle Canal is a stange grotto where the water
>burns. This can be a problem if you are in a wooden boat. However,
>when the water is placed in a container it burns away leaving a thin
>residue, Water Ash. This is fully burnt-out water and useful for
>resisting fire. This would be the result for ALL the water in the
>seas if Tanian got loose and out of control!
(Pause a moment as Sandy stops and preens). This was one of the very first RQ scenarios I ever wrote.
Paul Reilly assays:
>Lon-Eel ... has a strange book about how everything will be
>wonderful once the Empire rules the world. Once the borders of the
>Empire and the Universe are the same, the Crimson Bat will no longer
>be Chaotic... Sadly her _next_ book was even wackier, describing how
>Broo and Scorpion Men and the like were really quite nice, if you
>gave them a chance. (She of course lives in GLamour and has never
>met one of these creatures).
Do you have titles for either of these books? It's quite clear to me that when my players finally make it to the Empire's borders, they're going to have copies of these works forced upon them by eager missionaries, and they're going to have to read them thoroughly (the players are new to Glorantha, but they've already learned the Truth About Scorpion Men -- i.e., fight or flight)
David Cake says:
>according to the rules, squires, acolythists, etc. are the big
>LOSERS of the [Hrestoli] system, because they are officially farmer
>caste, and never develop their skills at farming, so never leave it.
Despite the official Hrestoli line that everyone has an equal chance, it's clear to me that if you're the son of a Knight, you're going to make it to Knight status ahead of the son of a Farmer. Ditto for Wizards and Lords. I'm sure that a Squire is required to take a sabbatical every so often to polish up his Craft skill or whatever so that he can become a Knight that much sooner.
I also suspect that there are two types of Squires in Hrestoli society: sons of Lords, Knights, and Wizards, who are simply marking time while they work on qualifying for higher rank, and the other, perhaps more common variety, which is simply a rich Farmer who has taken upon him some of the responsibilities of the upper ranks without actually qualifying for the job. In a meritocracy such as Loskalm, in which there is probably very few Lords, some sort of sub-Lord is needed to rule the peasants. Knights and Wizards might be able to pick up some of the slack, but they have other responsibilities besides government. The solution? Squires.
>There are several very big questions about Hrestoli society left
>unanswered. The most important one is what degree of separation of
>Church and state is there? The answer is quite possibly none.
I don't think the Hrestoli are aware that there _can_ be a difference between the State and the Church. Their entire social structure is built upon their religious beliefs. I think that it is possible, even likely, that they have no church "hierarchy", no priests, whatsoever. At their ceremonies, the local Knight or Squire officiates. If it's a more important ceremony, you get a Wizard to bless the crowd. If it's a great big year-end type thing, then a Lord shows up.
While someone has to take care of the temples to the Invisible God and stuff, I'm unconvinced there's a special
bureaucracy assigned to that purpose. If you were a Wizard, the Lord might assign you to be the prelate in charge of the Dubuque Temple one year, and then the next year you might wangle an assignment as a military Wizard, posted to the Order of the Swallow as magic support. Then the next year, you might become the special aide to Lord Boojwa up north, who needs extra help with the crops, so you'd better bone up on your agricultural spells. Of course, I don't think that such rapid job-changing is the norm, and no doubt wizards specialize to some extent in their spell choices, but my point is that the Loskalmi see no essential difference between the military, the civil, and the ecclesiastical systems.
>while tolerance of SOME unbelievers is sometimes considered a
>Christian virtue (it was not always), tolerance for heretics is much
>less. And to the Hrestoli most Malkioni are heretics. The Rathori or
>Uncolings are primitives who have nt heard the word of the Prophet,
>and we pity them, but the <insert other Malkioni sect here> have
>heard the words of the Prophet, and twist his words and mix them
>with lies, and they are truly wicked.
I concur with this statement. Let me give you an example from the Good Old Days: in the Middle Ages, Jews were often considered to be under the protection of civil authorities, and had license to disbelieve in Christ, say bad things about Him, etc., and no ecclesiastical action could be taken. However, if a CHRISTIAN were to say Bad Things about the church, he could be burned alive or worse. Of course, Jews were sometimes attacked in [illegal] mob actions or by [illegal] government plots, and they were blamed for the Black Death, but until the Inquisition (which hunted them down and basically exterminated Spanish Jewry), I know of no formally organization in place to pick on them, unlike the "heretic" Christians.
In other words, I agree that the Hrestoli hate the Jonatings more than the Orlanthi or Rathori. The Hrestoli doubtless (in principle) dislike the Rokari. I'm not sure if their opinion vis-a-vis the Rokari is the dire hatred of the Roman Catholic for the Lutheran, or the relatively mild distaste of the Greek Orthodox for the Roman Catholic.
>Until Loskalm smashes the Kingdom of War and then keep going.
>Nothing like outnumbering an enemy 10-to-1, being better organised
>and more advanced technically and magically to give you an edge in a
>war..
Don't write off the KoW too soon. Even if we accept the population numbers listed in the Genertela player's book as accurate (they're not -- I say this even though 'twas me personally who compiled them), the KoW has approximately 85,000 warriors. Loskalm probably supports no more than 150,000 or so (if we grant them 5% full-time soldier population, which is a hefty number to support for a civilized land that doesn't enslave and Tap its peasants or live off plunder). I have seen no evidence that the Loskalmi are better organized -- if anything, the KoW is much better set up for a war. For one thing, the Hrestoli social system is actually quite rigid, and makes it hard to, say, suddenly recruit more knights.
Loskalm may be more advanced magically, but why do you say technically?
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 10 Oct 2003 - 01:34:58 EEST