From: alex (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Mon 20 Jun 1994 - 01:55:35 EEST
Sandy Petersen:
> >> Second, having female magicians is not the same as having female
> >>clerics.
> Alex sez:
> >I'm afraid it pretty much is, if it's only proper to use magic in
> >the context of worship of the Invisible God, the standard Western
> >line.
> I don't think this is the Standard Western Line at all, given
> that peasants and knights are able to use sorcery among both the
> Rokari and the Hrestoli. I don't think that the sorcery performed by
> magicians is considered "Sacred" in the same way that Orlanth's Rune
> spells are sacred manifestations of their deity.
Not Sacred, _dangerous_. Only properly religious and moral people, with the necessary wisdom, can use Advanced Magic without imperilling their souls. Low-caste types can (morally) use limited magic, by virtue of their belief in the Invisible God, and their observation of caste strictures.
> The Invisible Gods'
> manifestations are "subtler" i.e., not so obvious. The Westerners
> know that any random student can learn perfectly competent sorcery.
Yup, but they don't consider unaligned sorcerors to be morally correct in their magical practices, do they?
> Hence, I believe that Hrestoli and Rokari women are permitted
> to learn all the magic they qualify for, whether or not they're
> allowed to officiate at religious ceremonies. So there, nyah.
I agree. I just don't think they generally qualify for a whole lot.
> >As for a female Talar, get back to me on this immediately after the
> >World's Greatest Democracy elects a woman president.
> Now see here, wiseass.
Please, that'd be wise_arse_. See previous discussion on Effete Americanisms.
> Having a female King of Loskalm is NOT
> the same as having a female Talar somewhere.
Obviously not, but this is only a compelling point if Loskalm is _as_ egalitarian as the US, which seems highly unlikely. My point is that these things are relative. Even if Loskalm is less misogynist than the Rest of the West (and we don't even know that it is), that's not saying a lot.
> I live in a state
> (Texas), boasting a female governor. We have female senators. We have
> female cabinet members. Obviously the U.S. of A. is grossly
> chauvinistic, but we DO have female rulers.
The US is, in historical terms, and even in modern, global terms, grossly gender-egalitarian. Lots of NPC MCPs, yes, but equal political structures exist, at least. This is true of very few terran societies over time, even supposedly "democratic" or "meritocratic" ones, and certainly not the ones which are "analogues" for the Gloranthan West.
> My belief is that so do
> the Hrestoli, though probably not (even) as many as 20th-century U.S.
> Besides, the Hrestoli are English-equivalents
They are? England of what period? Can't say this comparison had ever occurred to me. (Not that I was the American one seriously.)
> not U.S. equivalents, and _they've_ had female rulers. PM & Queen.
England has had female monarchs, but only on a heriditary, no-males-available basis. "England"'s solitary female PM is a case too traumatic for me to dwell on.
But to compare Loskalm with anywhere in mediaeval Europe (England included), female "ruling" nobles were functionally non-existant. A woman would only inherit when there were no brothers to precede her, and hieresses and dowagers generally had little direct say in their own lands, which their feudal superior would regard as theirs to dispose of as they wished, by marrying off the wench in question to someone they approved of, who would then rule the lands much as if he'd inherited them himself.
> >Aren't you trying to have your Monomyth and beat up on it, Sandy?
> >Orlanth killed Yelm everywhere, but in some places it was before the
> >entrance of chaos, and other places it was after?
> I face the contradictions head-on. I neither deny the
> Monomyth's truth, nor do I deny the truth of local variations. So
> there. My personal beliefs are full of contradictions -- why can't be
> Gloranthan beliefs be the same?
Having two of the Monomyth's Fundamental Stages in the wrong order seems like more than a Little Local Difficulty. You mean it's "true", as a generalisation, or that it has fundamental truth, even where some people deludedly believe differently?
> >> Eurmal is known and worshiped along the Pamaltelan coast,
> >>he's the same entity that is worshiped in Sartar.
> The God Learners said he was. Modern Pamaltelan scholars
> generally agree. So who are you, little man, to argue? After all,
> Eurmal tricksters that worship in the Pamaltelan shrines get Rune
> magic.
But they also do so in "Bolongo" shrines, so that's no argument that specific sites of worship and myths are Eurmal, and _not_ Bolongo (or whoever else).
> My own belief is that curved blades were used in Peloria
> BEFORE the Lunars ever came along.
It seems more likely that the Lunars popularised and spread them, than invented them, at any rate.
> For some reason, I like the theory that the Carmanians
> somehow came to use curved swords in the years since their exile from
> Fronela (maybe I think this way because of the Persian connection),
> and that the Lunars adopted it from them.
Hrm. We get a lot of these "the Carmanians invented it, because the Persians did" arguments these days, I note. Too many, I think, when one considers how brief a time Carmania was a distinct entity, in between leaving the West, then conquering/merging with Dara happa, and then getting squished by the Lunars. (A few hundred years, the exact dates escape me.) By contrast, the Persians(/Parthians/Medians/all that lot) are comparatively ancient, and were culturally and geographically fairly distinct for quite some considerable time (though influencing, and influenced by the adjoining civilisations, true), which is why they thought up all this Good Stuff.
> I also like the theory that the Pent sun nomads use curved
> swords, and this may be another influence on the Dara Happans.
Could be, but we've no reason for the Pentans inventing or using them. I'm tempted to suppose they come to Peloria via Pent from Kralorela, which admittedly only moves the problem along a bit.
David Cheng:
> No, I am not yet accpeting orders for these books. Please wait for
> the formal announcement.
What, can't we just trample you in the dust at Convulsion, then? Aaawwww... ;-)
Devin Cutler:
> Alex writes:
> " From reading KoS, for example, one would not
> immediately conclude the Orlanthi are a people for whom magic necessarily
> "works", so much as they are a culture who _believe_ it does. As did many
> Earthly cultures."
> I'm afraid you've lost me. Are you saying Orlanthi do not actually work
> magic? Are you implying that Orlanthi magic is somewhow a sham? Please
> elucidate.
I'm saying that _if_ Orlanthi magic didn't work, or if it did, we'd not know the difference from KoS. Think of the RQ rules as a crutch in playing their characters accurately, to aid modern, cynical players, who couldn't "correctly" interpret "mere chance events" and "unsubstantiated, unrepeatable occurrences" as the Miracles and Efficacious Magic that a devout Orlanthi certainly would.
> "Resurrection has strict time limits, and must be done _before_ someone
> goes to their afterlife (or not). Hence bringing back someone _after_
> this is a totally different matter."
> I fail to see the difference. The great dividing line is life vs death. Even
> if "Heaven" has not been reached, it is clear that one survives after death,
> simply because after Resurrection, one is alive after having spiritually left
> his body. The fact that there is some sort of certain existence after death
> makes the difference.
Not at all. If one is regularly returned from the dead up to seven days after the event, during which time you're merely a spirit/ghost, that's no evidence of a "real" afterlife after one's spirit no longer apparently exists, and when one _can't be resurrected_. Daka Fal types probably, in fact, believe that if you're not still a ghost (though unresurrectable) after this point, you're a dead duck, and that the theists are just kidding themselves, as Westerners are will their talk of "Solace".
Perhaps "scienti{f|st}ically"-minded Gloranthans pronounce a body "spirit dead" after seven days...
Alex.
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