From: Alex Ferguson (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Thu 23 Jun 1994 - 21:05:03 EEST
Colin Watson:
> >IMO one who knows the appropriate rituals (and how to perform them)
> >to get Axe Trance (reusably) effectively *becomes* a priestess of
> >Babeester Gor regardless of how they reached that status or how they
> >intend to use it.
SYS_RSH%PV0A:
> A good point, but I don't entirely buy into the "regardless" part.
> I'll grant perhaps that their intentions can be masked, but I think
> it makes a difference as to how they reached "priest" status. After
> all, part of the point of sacking power to the god (Joerg and Alex,
> STAY OUT OF THIS! <grin>) is to create a link to the god through
> which magic flows.
Did you call, Mr. Heat Sink? (Or may I call you Official? <g>) I don't think Joerg and I particularly disagree about this (with each other, or with you), though we may have a difference in interpretation of how it "works", exactly. But in any case, the most obvious way to "rip off" a god is to recreate their rituals reasonably closely, _including_ sacrifice of POW and mps, but simply with cynical/powermongering/minimaxing intent. Trial and error may also reveal where the ritual or sacrifice may be (apparently) safely short-cut or skimped on.
> No sacrifice, to way to scarf up magic. I think
> you must be initiated at some point to pull this off. (One could
> argue that by learning the ritual, one sacks POW, but that's
> stretching it....)
No, I'd argue that initiation is itself a ritual, which (generally) involves sacking the pointa POW. This ritual is normally a "prerequisite" to (successful) completion of the other rituals, such as the ones which will get you the magic. Many of the elements of traditional initiation are mainly social in content and purpose, and a cynical group of worshippers could certainly muck around with them a fair bit and they'd still "work", I'm quite sure. Perhaps the god will get wind up this presently, and hose them appropriately, according to one's view in such matters.
> True, but... :) It seems obvious that the gods know about things in
> mundane Glorantha that no worshipper really knows. I admit that this
> "tertiary" knowledge is pretty hazy most of the time, but I think
> that whilst the gods might be limited in their actions (because of
> the Compromise), they can still fiddle with the remote control and
> WATCH things. Ergo, the gods know more about you than you think.
> The primary and secondary knowledge might have more weight, but I
> still think they'd know what else you'd been doing, even in secret.
To paraphrase Professor Greg, no-one in Glorantha is omni-anything. Whilst in principle they can Tune In to any worshippers viewpoint, at least to some unstated degree, their interest in doing so is going to be fairly limited, unless the worshipper is doing something _interesting_, like praising him to the roof insulation. And if the god does happen to notice someone doing something Mildly Naughty, what's he going to do about it? Dispatch the odd impest (or local equivalent), if he happens to be feeling unusually Old Testament at that non-instant.
If one has to be a complete Goody Two Shoes in order to get effective magic, how do we account for all the arseholes in Glorantha, past and present, who patently _have_ had it? And how do Illuminates fit into the picture?
> I just like my gods to be, well, godly.
Devin Cutler edicts:
> Asie from my previous
> objectiosn to this, I would rule that the rituals cannot be done properly
> without being devoted.
\begin{Lord "Larry, dear Larry" Olivier impersonation} Haven't you heard of The Method, deah bhoy? \end{Whatsit}
> I haven't been following this thread too closely, but isn't it possible to
> say that Eurmal is a Murderer simply because he was the indirect cause of
> every murder commited since Godtime by his finding of Death?
No, not in the sense of the Trickster Murderer aspect, which after all grants the spell of Strike, which is a direct cause of Death by anyone's standards.
> Humakt doesn't care if Chaotics worship him. As far as not acting in a
> Humakti fashion, they are Illuminated, aren't they? Same for the Chalanna
> Arroy broo.
They are? Not impossible, but not likely, I don't think, and not an explanation to be invoked every time someone strays from the One True Cult Writeup. Are all the B'stards in the KoW worshipping Humakt illuminated, too?
> Also, I believe the 7 day [limit for Resurrection] rule was dropped from RQ3.
But not from Glorantha. In any case, RQ3 uses a different mechanism with much the same upshot. 7D3 loss to each of four characteristics will generally ruin your whole week, really.
> In Cults of Prax, most of the Spirits of Reprisal seem to be able, on their
> own, to excommunicate apostates. I have always viewed the RQ3
> "ecommunication" spell as an Alternate Earth spell set up because they do not
> have Spirits of Reprisal
Probably partially true, but in many cases the Spirit of Reprisal will be summonned/invoked by a high priest, rather than dreaming it up all by itself, or doing so under direct orders from God HQ.
> Because Gods cannot invasively read the minds of worshippers, but they CAN,
> over a period of time, by observing rituals, tell whether an initiate is
> truly devout.
So if I perform the rituals correctly, I am, by definition, devout? This merely leaves the question of how hard it is in practice to be Cynically Devout.
Colin Watson:
> The gods sacrificed their free will to save the world. On the Mundane Plane
> the cults now manipulate the gods more than the gods manipulate the cults.
> That is the magnitude of the Compromise.
I agree with this. Of course, the cults don't (generally) look at it like that: they (each) think they're following the One True Word.
> - Even in the event of success; if *any* other Humakti priests found out about
> it, these "new worshippers" would be excommunicated so fast it would make
> their heads spin clean orf. And they would be right back at square one.
I disagree with this particular bit: one should only be able to excomm., or sic spirits of reprisal on, cultists from the same "hierarchy". (Otherwise Humakti duals between two High Swords becomes "Excommunication Quick Draw". <g>)
Alex.
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