From: Barron Chugg (bchugg@leland.stanford.edu)
Date: Sat 25 Jun 1994 - 17:17:41 EEST
Hello All.
A little more thinking on the idea of "god pathes" to share. I was thinking a bit more about the cultural variations of cults. I liked the idea of the variances, but they seemed a bit artificial if "they're all worshipping the same deity". Well, I looked back at this in the light of the pathes idea and came up with the following. Imagine that a deity has a certain set of pathes that define his/her history, mythology and personality. No doubt these are a lot of varied pathes, some better defined than others. Now consider that no single culture is likely to "know" _all_ the pathes of a god, or even look at the ones they are aware if the same way. So in some areas they are aware of Orlanth's Adventurous aspects, in others the Rex and Thunderous. These are clearly the same god, but two areas are following him in very different ways (Ralios (as recently discussed) and Dragon Pass for example).
Consider the question of Broo Humakti and Chalana Arroy which has been mentioned a lot lately. We usually think of CA in her Lightbringer aspect, but I imagine the Dorastori broos emphasis her healer aspect. Granted, they are not likely to be able to follow the pathes that lead to Cure Chaos Wound or any diesease fighting abilities, but I'd think most other healing spells are available. While illumnation would help, it is not mandatory. As for Humakt, I have no problem with broos devoting themselves to Death, but they'd have problems with the Truth parts (I have never thought of Chaotics as being to innately honest). So they'd get the death and combat abilities and not the Oaths and Detect Truthes.
Before you folks start to think that any cult can be manipulated this way, consider the following. The main anti-chaos cults (Orlanth, Urox, etc.) would have the "lawful" qualities at the core of the religion, such that, to remove them would cause the cult to lose its identity (and poof, no runemagic at all).
From: cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com (CULLEN O'NEILL)
>
>
>Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 4753
>
>B> This is the crux of my idea: that runemagic comes from within. Now,
>B> you cannot get it without following some path, that is to say, by
>B> emulating your diety.
>
>This fits in nicely with my conception of initiation (RD&EG)... The
>idea is that getting Rune Spells is essentially the result of a minor
>heroquest (that is what you're proposing right?)...
Yeah, that is exactly what I mean. But I am not certain if the HQ is real or implied (or if the two ideas can be seperated). I like the mystical imagry in Jonas's Growing Pain scenerio, but I guess I have always had a slightly more mundane view of Gloranthan religion. As I have said above, I think the individual spells/aspects of the deity are seperable, and this argues that they are seperate pathes. BTW, what is "RD&EG"?
>
>I can see that the rituals to gain Rune magic would be involved, and for
>the really good spells, maybe even with an element of risk (Sever
>Spirit, etc as you mentioned... ie: the grossly powerful stuff)
>
I like the idea that the more powerful spells imply a certain risk. I mean, if you tie yourself close enough to the Death rune that you can kill another person...well, that should have some side effect/risk. But, on the other hand, this is opening a hole new can of worms...
>
>For regaining the spell, some sort of mental reliving of the quest might
>be in order?
What is worship beside comtemplating the aspects of your god? You can just chose which aspects (i.e. spells) you wish to relive.
>_____________________________
>B> note, I like the idea of using Arlaten's ideas as a contrast to Pavic
>B> society, but I'd also like to believe that his opinions are not
>B> typical of a Westerner).
>
>Well... I'd like to agree that there can be exceptions in Rokari
>culture, but SiP is quite clear: 'To him (and his culture)...'
>
Sure, sure, throw facts at me. Jeez, what a pedant! :-) I guess I am trying to invoke the "everything <any Glorathan author> says is wrong" clause. To be honest, what I'd really like to see is a developement of Western culture that is not a carbon copy of Christianity (note, gross over generalization). Since Western culture has not been at all developed (wouldn't a few nice mythes of Malkion be nice?), we (the playing public) are just filling in the copious gaps with something familiar.
>But we only know about Rokari culture being this sexist. One culture
>being this way, especially with a number of cultures leaning the other
>way (as pointed out by a number of people) is natural.
Yeah, I'm not advocated across the board openmindedness, that would be kinda boring. And I'll admit to having a personal bias against sexist theocracies. The most fun (game-wise) would be to have the more consevative Rokari refuse to recognize Saint Michelle (or, better, recognize her as a watered down version of herself (e.g. she sanctions women to do healing magic and defend the homestead)). Meanwhile in Fronela and Safelster, Michelle is alive and well. And, again, to make my bias clear, I don't like to Rokari much (hey, Greg can hate Mostali, I can hate Rokari).
>
>From: paul@phyast.pitt.edu (Paul Reilly)
>
> Note that Michael is a very martial saint/archangel, God's premier warrior.
>So a martial St. Michelle as patron of female Knights makes sense.
>
Actually I was giving a nod to Michelle Ringo who started me thinkng about this stuff. Umm, I mean...yeah, that was what I had in mind all the time...
>
>From: SMITHH@A1.MGH.HARVARD.EDU (Harald Smith 617 726-2172)
>
>-Barron on initiates
>In general I like this approach because it makes the initiate active and
>the god accessible via myth only. The closer you walk in the mythic
>pathway the more likely you are to achieve results parallel to the myth.
>Curiously, this approach reminds me of the RQII schema where people set
>out to walk in the path of the gods to achieve runes. When you had
>achieved them you were like your god. Only those who went beyond to add
>their own runes (i.e. heroes) really changed the mythic boundaries.
>
The idea about RQ2 was mentioned before, and you're right, it fits great. Must be my old RQ2 training coming to the fore. I like the idea that this view gives some logic to the "POWx3" tests for some cults. Can you manifest the aspects of the god well enough to become a priest? Clearly when HeroQuest is published it will address all the questions about how you start your own hero cult ("Blessed are the gullible...").
Mike:
>
>In Friday 6/24's digest, Sandy Petersen seconded BAron Chugg's
^r
Then again, with a name like mine, you'd think I'd get used to
mispellings...:-)
>suggestion that the Rokari have a kick-butt female saint with what
>are way cool ideas on how she offers outlets for women choosing
>unconventional career choices. Great idea.
>
>
>But can we please find a name for her that is not shared by a bunch
>of Duran Duran fans? St. Michelle??? Ugh. Is she really named with a
>feminized version of Michael, derived from the Hebrew for " Who is
>like the Lord?"?
>
>I just HATE the use of english (or other recognizable) names in
>Glorantha. That's why I pronounce it Talar Malaskan Puh-hill-eep-eh.
>
Yes, something more Gloranthan would be nice. How about Saint Elleish (il-EESH)?
From: lindsell@rschp1.anu.edu.au (Graeme Lindsell)
>
> Barron Chugg suggests:
>>Imagine a person's progression in a cult as a heroquest of sorts. The
>>quest itself is to follow the path of their god
>>This removes the troubling question of the gods acting
>>directly in the world
>
> But raises the more troubling question as to whether the god has
>any kind of independant existance at all, or is just these collection
>of hero paths, and is made manifest by people walking them. A question
>the God Learners obviously pondered, and came up with answer "Not real,
>just exploitable heroquest paths".
>
Yep, that is the $128,000 question, isn't it? I think I'd like to go with the "Have my cake and eat it too" solution. To the gods devoted follower, of course the god is an independant entity. To the cynical scientist, the "god" is just the pathes. In Glorantha I have no trouble with them both being right. Particle or a wave, you make the call!!
>Colin Watson replies:
>>I propose that fresh paths can be forged and
>>Did this not happen with Zistor the Machine and the Red Goddess?
>
> Wasn't the Red Goddess more a case of the Seven Mother's retreading some
>very old hero paths?
>
Don't I wish I had WF 14(?) or the early Heroes mags so I could know more about the early Lunar Empire. You bet I do. On the less bitter hand, I think that their are other examples, Arkat, Dormal, Thanatar (a synthesis diety), City Gods, Exarchs, Malkioni Saints, Hwarin Dalthippa, the Seven Mothers (they may be more borrowed LB pathes). Anyway, there is, I think, precedant for new pathes coming into being. I'm not really an expert on HQing and all, can anyone help me out here?
>
>Alex Ferguson replies
>>To wit, the Compromise. But why is Time, Time, if there's no difference
>>in the causality "before" and "after"?
>
> There is the general theme of cyclic time in Glorantha. It's possible
>that each cycle sees itself as essentially the same, with the gods being
>the inhabitants of the previous cycle (or even earlier). So we have
>Orlanth, who replaced Umath, before whom there was the Celestial Court.
>The Dara Happan's have the same belief: the futher into the past they
>look, the more powerful the inhabitants appear.
>
> KoS even shows us the next cycle, where Argrath has replaced Orlanth.
>This seems even more likely if Barron Chugg's proposals are correct, as
>Greg has asserted. There never was any distinction between the gods and
>men in Glorantha, and never any time when they walked the land except
>when they were mortals.
>
This is deep. Frighteningly so. I get the feeling we may be moving into the "things man was not meant to know" area. But seriously this does sound reasonable. It's a pretty complex idea that I will admit I have yet to grok. Maybe tomorrow...
Anyway, thanks for all the helpful comments.
Barron
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