From: Alex Ferguson (alex@dcs.gla.ac.uk)
Date: Mon 27 Jun 1994 - 15:21:19 EEST
Sandy:
> Alex: had to mention that your postings in the daily for Friday made
> me laugh and laugh.
<modest bow> You're too kind.
> Alex goes on to say:
> >"Storm" is a proper, *manly* Element that I'd be proud to run &
> >shout for.
Hey, did not! <pokes firmly> Watch your recoil: We Are (to ape John Ford).
Paul Reilly, on why Rune magic appears to work in wrongly-sanctified areas:
> I think it's because the priest is doing the Rune Magic, not the god.
Now, I don't necessarily disagree with, nor do I necessarily not disagree with this. But why would DI be different, in principle? This is Greg's argument: "(the POW for) DI comes from within." And how does this fit in with the removal of the restriction on Divining into an enemy temple? Who's providing the oomph _in_ the temple in that case?
> I'm not sure "we" know that the ever-reincarnating Red Emperor, whose
> appearance never changes and who is said to descend again from the Moon if
> his body is killed, is selected this way. In fact we've seen references
> that differ. Reference on this? Or does "We know" mean "around here we think"?
It means I've seen a reference that implies this, and forgotten the details. _Tales..._ take on the RE? I gotta go beat up Sam for my Talesies. But to paraphrase, it says that he looks different every time, is "not always immediately apparent it's really him" until he's installed.
> Um. I've seen this story soomewhere else too, and it seems consistent
> to me. Humakt IS the sword. He kills Grandfather Mortal. In another
> story Eurmal USES Humakt to kill Grandfather Mortal. Fine by me - as
> long as we know Humakt IS the Sword as well as the Warrior. (BTW this
> is important in Carmania - more on that later.)
But it's not consistent, from the POV of the typical worshipper. The stereotypical Orlanthi warrior will think: "_I'm_ a swordsman, not a sword, hence, Humakt's a swordsman, and not a sword." More deathocentric Humakt guys will take the opposite view. As may the typical Orlanth guy: "Humakt is _my_ sword."
Besides, in The Sword Story, Humakt isn't even _present_ when Eurmal kills Gramps (I think, no books).
Nick Brooke takes the sacred word of Alex, and heretically reinterprets them:
> > Clearly, but they don't say "Yelm rises, time starts" at _any_ point
> > (other than 0YS).
> You mean, they *never* say "Time starts," while they *only* say "Yelm
> rises" at 0 YS and 111,221 YS. (From memory, so sue me).
> > But given that Arkat has previously managed to appear as several people,
> > and given that (at least) four of them are (going to be) probably lying,
> > this is not the stuff of great inconsistency.
> Only four out of five lying? Who was Arkat ever honest with??
I should have underlined the "at least", I suppose.
Ed Wallman:
> It does appear that paths of worship and heroquesting can be derailed or
> even forged anew (e.g. Gold Wheel Dancers, Arkat, God Learners). However,
> it only seems possible with a superhuman effort. Joe Schmoe who wanders in
> his religion is visited by nasty spirits. Joe Hero who wanders in his
> religion becomes a subcult.
Them's the breaks. Bummer. Of course, "Hero" is retroactively defined to mean "the guy who got it to work, not the guy who got eaten trying." I think that most significant-change type HQs occur through the action of _both_ "Big guys" and "Little guys".
> Here is an idea. Instead of a single heroic individual forging a new path,
> what if many many unheroic people kept throwing themselves at it. Sure,
> most would be snuffed out, but eventually the path would be trodden enough.
> This sounds so familiar as I write it, I think it must have happened in
> some form in Gloranthan history.
Well, what about the "fact" that The Emperor is Yelm? No-one (important) HQed this (as far as we know), everyone just Realised it.
Martin Crim:
> Re: Alex's Furious(ly) Fighting Factions of KoW
> Oh, you think they KILLED the trolls, do you?
That's their schtick, innit? Maybe they're stuck in a darkness box being tapped of their power and robbed of their magic, I dunno.
> Re: Time, causality, and philosophical dreck like that
> But how did causality come into existence? <naive look>
As part of the "deal" of the compromise, if the Orlanthi are to believed. Or do do you mean what "caused" the Compromise, and hence causality? I suppose either The Comp. is either it's own First Cause, or the events of the Godtime collectively all "cause" it (though not necessarily each other).
> Re: Several suns
After a plea for fewer quotes, now, a plea for more quotes. Which part of this _whole dang post_ is being cited regarding the following followup?:
> Yeah, but the point I was trying to make is this: was Yelm
> originally the sun to Orlanthi, or was he the Emperor?
That's an easy one. Originally "the Emperor" was just "the Emperor"; he became Yelm, and the (non-winter) sun at the same time. Essentially.
> Anyway, it's kind of peripheral to what I was doing in that
> piece.
What is? Which of the umpteen separate points I made is thusly peripheral?
> Re: Pol Joni Orlanthi
> There are at least two references more recent than CoP that
> say the tribe worships Orlanthi gods.
What, _all_ of them? The central worship is going to be Orlanth and co. But the tribe has so many adoptees, the centre may be getting rather small. I'm not claiming that the CoP numbers are Gospel, or anything, though.
> And that serious a
> transformation for a Praxian animal rider nomad would almost have
> to entail a change of cult, wudnit?
For Wahaists, more likely than not. Others, by no means necessarily.
> Compare the other Praxian
> outlaw groups: Amazons (Yelorna), Gagarthi, and Cannibal Cult.
But they're not an outlaw group, they are a not-liked group outside the covanent. (Ditto Yelorna, too. And the Unicorn Tribe is by no means all Yelornans.)
Alex.
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