From: CULLEN O'NEILL (cullen.oneill@thuemmel.com)
Date: Sun 03 Jul 1994 - 10:46:44 EEST
Henk Langeveld in X-RQ-ID: 4912
H>to perform an Heroic action "as the god would do in the situation". H>The POW spend allows/enables, ah, emPOWers the initiate H>to actually perform the miracle.
I like this. It seems to me to provide a model for DI that would work well with the 'No gods, just paths' interpretation. I also like the idea of the player having to make an act of faith when trying for a DI. It seems to me that this will (at least) lead to the deaths of players being more heroic than might otherwise be the case. "OK, I charge the line of broos, and call on Storm Bull to fill me with his power and his fury..."
When Buddhists say everything is empty, they mean it does not exist essentially (ie: it has no eternal unchanging essence), but only in relation to other things. I think this is what is intended by your diagram, and by the Kralorela mysticism stuff we have, but then again it could be interpreted as philosophical idealism, or as nihilsm.
N> reach this aloof god, or his worship, Teshnos mode, started in N> incredibly ancient times, before he withdrew beyond the sky N> dome. The second would make Teshnan society _very_ old
The aloofness might actually have a snob appeal ;^)
E> E> I agree with this, but I would place considerably more emphasis E> on the "God" portion than you seem to.
Why? I'm sure a worshiper of Orlanth would tend to do this, but as a GM I would tend to try to see it from different points of view depending on the situation. If a NPC is recounting a myth then the god is the focus, but if a person is Rune or Hero Questing then the paths format seems to me the easiest aid to understanding (in my own mind) what is happening (so I can explain it to my players in the God metaphor).
A> the kind of place where hardened pragmatist nations of warriors would A> wait a couple of weeks for the correct phase of the moon before A> marching to the aid of their allies at a crucial moment of a war, or A> spend thousands of man-years of effort on raising mausolea to the A> dead, or conducting human sacrifice, or going to war about which holy A> book to use, or anything so senselessly devout as that. How the hell A> much more devoted do you _want_?
Nice Examples. But I've come to the conclusion that Devin doesn't seem to want to admit that the world view of medieval peoples was similar to what he has proposed for Gloranthan Theists, with the added proviso that God knows everything you're thinking and everything you do. Also, if the god is there to congratulate you, then you know you've done good. Without this (and given the horrible nature of hell) the worry that you're not good enough is constant, driving you to greater and greater lengths to prove your devoutness to your (doubting) self. Actually the presence of actual gods might decrease the devoutness of their actions. If in fact they know that the god exists from experience, then they might lay back, sure that by merely going to church and not suffering impests (etc) that they are among the saved. But then again there are plenty of cases in medieval history where the faith of the people seems so unshakable that I can't (quite frankly) imagine anyone being more sure of the existence of a divinity.
Also Devin seems to assume that the existence of the gods is obvious. I just don't get this. Unless he's saying that they are manifesting themselves to the flock on a regular basis. His argument using divine magic seems flawed to me. Given that magic is a given, that the priests know how to do some that is powerful just makes them a secret magical society that claims to worship a 'god' whatever that is. A really powerful spirit if you ask me! ;^)
I favor the 'open to interpretation' model of the gods. That might exist as constrained but powerful thinking beings. Then again they might only exist as Paths in the Rune/Hero/God-Plane.
G> Barron Chugg has posted some great ideas on following runepaths to G> gain spells. In terms of RQ mechanics, I see these runepaths being G> laid out in worship ceremonies. The number of worshipers present G> would affect the number of runepaths available in a given ceremony. G> The particular paths would vary depending on the needs and desires of G> the worshipers and the priestesses leading the ceremony.
Would the priest(ess) be able to recover one point per ritual? How long is this ritual?
G> The important point, in terms of magical ecology, is that the only G> limit on how often ceremonies are held is the willingness of G> worshipers to attend. Where there are many worshipers, ceremonies G> may be held weekly or even daily (nightly?). Thus, an Ernalda G> priestess can easily recover her Bless Crops spell at plowing time.
Hmm, this does have appeal. But seems open to abuse by powergaming players with lots of followers.
G> However, consistent with Sandy's (and others') arguments, Resurrect G> is not readily available because Chalana Arroy worshippers while G> widespread, are a tiny minority in most cultures. (All? Is there G> anywhere Chalana Arroy is worshiped as the principal deity? I seem G> to have a vague recollection of a great temple to Chalana Arroy G> somewhere in the Holy Country.)
Worshippers here is initiate status or simply lay. Does an initiate count for several lay members?
M> The point? Most women in Glorantha are probably more fulfilled by M> traditional _roles_, although like modern women they probably want M> equal pay i.e respect for equal work. So doesn't this provide plenty M> of opportunity for women characters?
Pam already answered this as it should be answered (I really liked the 'adventure' presented), but I just thought I'd chip in:
If women want to play a role where the are given little power/authority but expected to do the work, and if they want anything done will have to work behind the scenes: They'll just become housewives, what do they need games for?
G> The central teaching of Illumination, we're told, is that chaos is G> not necessarily evil. This is such a shocking concept to many central G> Genertelans that if unprepared they go mad, and they adopt an often G> solipsistic view of reality.
I always thought of illumination as a kind of cultural relativism. This would allow one to realize 'the other side' of things. That is to say, you realize that chaos monsters are just acting out what their culture requires them to do, and that if they enjoy death and mutilation it is because they were taught that these are fun (or were not taught to empathise with beings not like them).
Cullen
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