Revelations of Agreement

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From: Elias Kadri (elias_kadri1@cl_63smtp_gw.chinalake.navy.mil)
Date: Tue 05 Jul 1994 - 12:49:42 EEST


 Subject:Revelations of Agreement
Hello!

I'm noticing a trend here: Every time someone posts something that seems just plain _wrong_, they seem to follow it up with a post that I agree with completely. Obviously we are all highly intelligent, rational people here!


Joe Lannom, on "time" in Godtime, and the Great Compromise:

Good Stuff! This made some fuzzy thoughts I had on the subject much clearer for me.


Colin Watson, responding to my position that Gods Are People Too:

E>The fact that the
E>worshipers of a god believe that their deity is a person makes it so 

C>What if some worshippers don't believe that the deity is a person? 
C>Do they get to veto this communal belief? Is it based on a majority?
C> (:-))

At risk of being thought over-literal, I would like to respond to this. Clearly, if belief creates reality, and if some worshipers believe the deity is defineable, and even controllable, then it will be so. Both are true at the same time: The deity is described by his paths, by his history which shows his worshipers the Way, and constrained by his nature, which requires him to be what he is, or cease to exist. On the other hand the deity is personal, and because of who he is, may act in ways his worshipers do not expect.

>I find it especially hard to believe that a living hero
>is going to meekly turn into an abstract construct of rituals as
>the price of apotheosis. 

C>Maybe I didn't explain things too well. The point is that the Hero 
C>doesn't get a choice in the matter. Heros don't get to choose to be 
C>Gods. They are made into gods by their worshippers; by all the 
C>folks who follow their path after them.

I think I'm going to have to plead guilty to an ill-considered statement here. I've always felt that in a well-run universe (not necessarily this one!), increasing power goes along with decreasing freedom to use it. Obviously, that applies to Heroes, too.


Barron Chugg gently reminds me that we are talking about a game here: 
B>  What I am saying is, the deep question about the gods is less 
B>important than the myriad of other questions about how this 
B>approach would work.  But then, it does bring out the latent 
B>philosopher in me...

Me too! (obviously) I'll try not to let him run away with me, though...

B> I see the hero as often _not_ in control of their destiny B> (a classic literary idea).

(see my reply to Colin, above)


Joerg explains: 
J> The whole point is to make the heretic devout initiate fighting 
J> against the baddies high up in the hierarchy possible. (Although the
J> initiation to political and otherwise power can be a much stronger 
J> force than initiation to a god, and with much stronger spirits of 
J> reprisal, too.)
J>
J> I think that the whole discussion started when Devin thought that 
J> irreverent and undevout priests were not possible (or  at least 
J> extremely unlikely) in Glorantha. There are lots of cases of highly 
J> placed priests who prove this to be historically wrong in Glorantha:  
J> Lokamayadon, Arkat, Obduran the Flyer, Treack Markhor, 
J> Yanafal Tarnils, Irripi Ontor, all these have succeeded in their 
J> betrayals and have become famous. How many more have failed and 
J> perished nameless?

Thanks, I had no idea how this thread started (but, being the unmannered lout that I am, I jumped in anyway!) (you mean I'm agreeing with _Devin_?? - well, not completely.) As a short answer, since I've already been long-winded enough, I would say that those folks are all Heroes, who made their own paths of power when they found that the god's Way didn't suit them. "Hero" in this sense, doesn't necessarily mean "good guy". If #004#I'm repeating thoughts that have already been said, let me know. I wouldn't want to beat a dead horse further (honest, I thought he was only sleeping!)


Cullen O'Neill points out: 
C> If a NPC is recounting a myth then the god is the focus, but if 
C> a person is Rune or Hero Questing then the paths format seems 
C> to me the easiest aid to understanding (in my own mind) what 
C> is happening (so I can explain it to my players in the 
C> God metaphor).

Point taken. I expect I'll make use of both viewpoints as well. 

                                                          Yours in Harmony,
                                                                Elias



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