Re: RuneQuest Daily, Mon, 04 Jul 1994, part 2

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From: DevinC@aol.com
Date: Wed 06 Jul 1994 - 22:03:15 EEST


Devin Cutler here:

David Dunham writes:

">in RQ3 they did away with POW gain rolls for spirit combat.

They did? PB.38 says you get a check any time you overcome MP vs MP."

The exact quote from the PB is:

"When a spell-using adventurer matches magic-points against a target's magic
points on the resistance table......"

This clearly, to my mind, implies that such only happens during spell casting, as evidenced by the words SPELL-USING and TARGET'S.

Joerg writes:

"The problem is that if you play by the rules as they are printed (as you
seem to claim in reply to Alex), you first need to Spelltrade an Attack Soul from the nearest Subere priestess to be able to attack the damn thing, or an equally hard-to-get-by Command non-cult spell spirit to make it attack someone in spirit combat, which it normally wouldn't do.

The spirit magic Control <Species> doesn't help either, because to use this you first must battle the damn thing down to zero MP. Only shamans can use this damn useless spell effectively, and they have the alternative to capture the beaten spirit with their fetch.

I don't say that this is how it should be, but this is how it is."

I noticed this rules problem on the first day that I bought RQ3. When I first came onto this list, I asked everyone about it, and the replies I received ranged from:

  1. Only shaman can control non-cult spell spirits
  2. The rule is broken and spirits can be combatted
  3. I fudge this whole rule section

I play that you cast the Control (Species) spell initially, and that spell, in and of itself, lures the normally reticent spirit into combat.

Otherwise, without non-affiliated spell spirits allowable for capture, I find the spell choice for many cults (not Lightbringers, who have so many associated cults, but try Yelmalio or Humakt)to be restricted and boring.

BTW, is the Slow spell MP vs MP on an unwilling target? It certainly doesn't say so, but it certainly should be, since it is the only Mp vs MP spell for Wahas and Erithans and is too good a spell otherwise.

In any case, yes Joerg, I DO change the rules on occasion when I really find them broken...but I try not to if at all possible.

"I think this whole set of spirit combat, spirit spell learning and control
rules is quite broken."

We are in full agreement.

"Do shrines teach spirit magic? According to the rules, they cannot -
Spellteaching is a Common Divine spell, and these are available and regainable only at Major or Great temples under RQ3. (Magic Book p.29)"

No, the shrine does not have spell teaching, but the Priest who tends the shrine (a PC) knows the True name of the Bladesharp and knows Summon Spell Spirit and Control Spell Spirit, so in a sense the shrine to which he is affiliated teaches that spell.

"A cultist with a number of divine enchantments could be recharged within
one day if enough Rune Rank cultists take part in refueling the enchantments, and enough other cultists show up to provide the flow of magic. This would make divine magic much more the communal magic it should be, IMO."

I like it.

"Yes there is, especially when regularly using Resurrection: the priest has
to spirit combat the resurrectee's spirit to force it back."

Not a big deal when, according to a strict interpretation of the rules, the CA has only to cast (or better yet, have a loyal initiate attendant cast) Spirit Screen 4 or Spirit Block 1.

There is still some ambiguity re: Resurrection anyways. Does it require an entire spirit combat (i.e. beat the soul down to zero MP) or merely one roll as per RQ2?

I run that Resurrection requires 1 roll, which effectively makes Spirit Screen and Spirit Block useless.

"I think that the disease rules are way too simlicistic, and the stages
too crass. However, I don't see how disease is easily shaken off."

OK. Page 84 Players Book RQ3 (page numbers from the new one-cover eidtion) states

"After contracting the disease, the adventurer's player must attempt another
Con roll at every interval specified by the number of failed Con rolls......If this CON roll succeeds, the adventurer is cured of his illness and loses no more characteristic points."

So, for a CON 9 Dex 9 person to die of, say, terminal Shakes would require fail 4 rolls just to get terminal shakes (very unlikely). Then he would lose 1 DEX. Every minute thereafter, he gets another 45% chance to throw off the disease. To die he would then have to fail EIGHT 45% rolls IN A ROW!!!! Not bloody likely.

The average person who gets terminal Shakes loses 2 Dex points in 2 minutes and then shakes off the disease. This is not easily shaken off?

"That "Sartarites all know Spirit Magic, it is cheap to obtain,
commonplace". To learn spirit magic from a cult draws on the cult's potential to cast rune magic. Three Spellteachings for Heal cancel out one potential Resurrection. Ok, the Heals in the field may cancel out the need for the Resurrection in the first place."

But the rules don't imply this. Let's start again by saying that I am in agreement that Spirit Magic is probably way too mechanistic in the RQ rules and way too easy to obtain, and should be more of a mystical, hero questic, communal affair. Certainly Divine Magic should be moreso. But the rules do not reflect this, and the rules are where I and a lot of tohers get their Gloranthan info from. KoS does not , IMO, debunk the RQ rules, it ignores them. This is not a solution. It merely argues that there IS a desparate need for a well-though out RQAiG.

The GoG rules state that Spirit Magic costs 45L plus 15L per MP cost. The cost in RQ3 to summon up spirits is also quite cheap. Ecomonomically, this low price implies ease of access and ease of use. Supply is large enough to meet demand. Either that or the info in GoG is highly broken (I'd opt for the latter, but we have no evidence to support this).

"I doubt this will make these candidates
very welcome, unless they bring rich gifts. This would make spirit magic a status object, since poor cottars or carls cannot afford the gifts needed to receive the "free" point of spirit magic every five years, or come to that, the trip there and the time off their fields or herd."

Agreed, but the rules should be changed to reflect something like this.

"Taking a look at Sartar, and crunching numbers:

(numbers crunching deleted):

Then it implies that:

  1. Spells are a lot less common than even 1 point every five years (and that rule should be changed) or
  2. Priests make up more than 1% of the population

"Do you believe all rumours? Faltikus being an illuminate is a rumour, not
a fact. Fact is that he tries to keep things civilized, which is a typical trait for conservative Thunderous priests, and that to do so, he even cooperates with Lunar authorities if this keeps his temple open."

Bah! That scum Faltikus is a proven Lunar bedfellow and worships Gbaji the Deceiver. My friend Rat tells me so and Rat knows everything! Say, you been askin a lotta strange questions lately.......

"However, if the ranking Orlanthi really thought Faltikus was a chaos simp,
why don't they excommunicate him?"

Because I would have to reason that Illuminates being immune to Spirits of Reprisal are immune to Excommunication.

Barron writes:

"First off to Alex and Devin: Can we step the flames down a little?"

I'll turn my knob down to slow sizzle :-)

 " If
you want to continue the thread, why not just restate the initial positions and see where you agree rather than disagree. I'll bet you'd be suprised. "

That's why I'd like to take the thread off line...I have been finding that I actually end up agreeing or agreeing to disagree with folks offline...and the name calling goes down quite a bit. Are you game Alex?

Paul writes:

" ???? We had a demonic crow in a flashback, it could not be killed by
any normal means. What is this demonic crow?"

He is a demon from an excellent article (by Jon Quaife?) in WD which details some very powerful demons...inclduing Magaera and a Shanasee of Yelm.

Regards

Devin Cutler
devinc@aol.com

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