From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Thu 07 Jul 1994 - 16:24:56 EEST
Devin Cutler in X-RQ-ID: 5054
> I play that you cast the Control (Species) spell initially, and that spell,
> in and of itself, lures the normally reticent spirit into combat.
> Otherwise, without non-affiliated spell spirits allowable for capture, I find
> the spell choice for many cults (not Lightbringers, who have so many
> associated cults, but try Yelmalio or Humakt) to be restricted and boring.
> No, the shrine does not have spell teaching, but the Priest who tends the
> shrine (a PC) knows the True name of the Bladesharp and knows Summon Spell
> Spirit and Control Spell Spirit, so in a sense the shrine to which he is
> affiliated teaches that spell.
Ok, but then there is the next problem: the priest has fought the spirit down to zero MP. How does this sorry remains of a spell spirit initiate spirit combat?
And: is the Summon Spell Spirit the priest uses a divine or a spirit spell? If it is a spirit spell, where did he get it?
> "Yes there is, especially when regularly using Resurrection: the priest has
> to spirit combat the resurrectee's spirit to force it back."
> Not a big deal when, according to a strict interpretation of the rules, the
> CA has only to cast (or better yet, have a loyal initiate attendant cast)
> Spirit Screen 4 or Spirit Block 1.
Nope. The discorporate spirit can try break off combat if one side has Spirit Block or too high Spirit Screen. These are spells which make interaction with a spirit difficult, so I rule they cannot be used offensively, neither in attacking nor in trying to get a spirit spell.
> There is still some ambiguity re: Resurrection anyways. Does it require an
> entire spirit combat (i.e. beat the soul down to zero MP) or merely one roll
> as per RQ2?
> I run that Resurrection requires 1 roll, which effectively makes Spirit
> Screen and Spirit Block useless.
> "I think that the disease rules are way too simlicistic, and the stages
> too crass. However, I don't see how disease is easily shaken off."
[...]
> So, for a CON 9 Dex 9 person to die of, say, terminal Shakes would require
> fail 4 rolls just to get terminal shakes (very unlikely). Then he would lose
> 1 DEX. Every minute thereafter, he gets another 45% chance to throw off the
> disease. To die he would then have to fail EIGHT 45% rolls IN A ROW!!!! Not
> bloody likely.
For a mundane disease, ok, not deadly, only extremely inconvenient (I mean you burn off characteristic points, extremely hard to regain). What I was thinking of were disease spirits. Get only a mild affliction, and you're doomed without outside help.
> The average person who gets terminal Shakes loses 2 Dex points in 2 minutes
> and then shakes off the disease. This is not easily shaken off?
The average CON roll would be CON*3, which gives you considerably worse chance to make your roll.
But the switch from Terminal to Cured is way too quick, I agree. I played that you reach the next milder stage as soon as your CON roll succeeded, and that treatment entitles you to additional CON rolls out of order.
> "That "Sartarites all know Spirit Magic, it is cheap to obtain,
> commonplace". To learn spirit magic from a cult draws on the cult's
> potential to cast rune magic. Three Spellteachings for Heal cancel out
> one potential Resurrection. Ok, the Heals in the field may cancel out
> the need for the Resurrection in the first place."
> But the rules don't imply this.
Don't they? You seem to play temples as open-ended ressource wells of magic, then.
I'd expect that CA Healers prefer to treat wounds over resurrecting casualties, and they prefer to treat diseases sent by Chalana's arch-foe Malia over treating wounds on people who (viewed from a CA POV) deserve some punishment for their violent ways.
> Let's start again by saying that I am in
> agreement that Spirit Magic is probably way too mechanistic in the RQ rules
> and way too easy to obtain, and should be more of a mystical, hero questic,
> communal affair.
At least the procedure as described is too bland.
> Certainly Divine Magic should be moreso. But the rules do
> not reflect this, and the rules are where I and a lot of tohers get their
> Gloranthan info from.
This is why this forum exists, and the (now fairly numerous) RuneQuest and Glorantha magazines. The rules alone give next to no info how Glorantha works.
> KoS does not , IMO, debunk the RQ rules, it ignores them.
Yet KoS describes Glorantha accurately. It is a primary source of Glorantha info, like it or not. Chaosium is planning to provide more Glorantha background without rules references, which is a good way to show the world.
> This is not a solution. It merely argues that there IS a desparate need
> for a well-though out RQAiG.
Yes, we need an "official document" which deals with these problems. Maybe the rules, maybe only a guideline how Glorantha can be run. From the discussion on the RQ4 list about power levels, there are multiple way how Glorantha is run. What we don't need are rules telling people that they did it wrong all the time. Nor was that my intention with the number crunching. Call it thought-provoking.
> The GoG rules state that Spirit Magic costs 45L plus 15L per MP cost. The
> cost in RQ3 to summon up spirits is also quite cheap.
If you assume that cash is readily available in Glorantha, there is no problem. If you have to pay with a heifer, you get a whole scenario out of bringing the silly beast across two ridges and three creeks, staying in two inns, and getting it through the city gate, keep it from panicking in the crowded city streets, and then enter the temple with the beast in tow, and clean up after it. A proud entry into the city and the temple, isn't it?
> Ecomonomically, this
> low price implies ease of access and ease of use. Supply is large enough to
> meet demand. Either that or the info in GoG is highly broken (I'd opt for the
> latter, but we have no evidence to support this).
Economy rules in the rules are way too generalized to accurately describe any society, Gloranthan or not. Prices for magic services are little more than a rough guideline, and don't reflect local economy at all.
> "Taking a look at Sartar, and crunching numbers:
> (numbers crunching deleted):
> Then it implies that:
> 1) Spells are a lot less common than even 1 point every five years (and that
> rule should be changed) or
> 2) Priests make up more than 1% of the population
I'd opt for both to be true. A priesthood that provides Bless Crops, Cloud Call and Cloud Clear is quite productive, and can be a specialist group within society.
The magic ecology described by the RuneQuest rules seems to work overall. Even the desasters in the magical ecology of Glorantha (like the Third Council overextending its ressources) can be understood in its terms.
The point I wanted to make is that people knowing up to their INT in spirit magic are unusual, and will likely be regarded as evil sorcerers or powerful priests by strangers. Also, priests have better things to do than teach spirit magic for free, they need to be buttered with suitable gifts, or to be pressured in some way. (The latter method is not recommendated...)
> "Do you believe all rumours? Faltikus being an illuminate is a rumour, not
> a fact. Fact is that he tries to keep things civilized, which is a typical
> trait for conservative Thunderous priests, and that to do so, he even
> cooperates with Lunar authorities if this keeps his temple open."
> Bah! That scum Faltikus is a proven Lunar bedfellow and worships Gbaji the
> Deceiver. My friend Rat tells me so and Rat knows everything! Say, you been
> askin a lotta strange questions lately.......
If this is directed to my Pavisite alter ego, this comes from studying Auld Wyrmish too intensely, which can affect your mind in odd ways.
Now your friend Rat, isn't this the guy who hangs out at Ogre Island?
And being a Lunar bedfellow, there is this rather charming girl from Sor-eel's household, who also lets out one or two good tips if tickled the right way...
> "However, if the ranking Orlanthi really thought Faltikus was a chaos simp,
> why don't they excommunicate him?"
> Because I would have to reason that Illuminates being immune to Spirits of
> Reprisal are immune to Excommunication.
Arkat was excommunicated from the Brithini. He was lucky, they did so in his absence...
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
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