From: Joerg Baumgartner (joe@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Sat 16 Jul 1994 - 18:04:06 EEST
Devin Cutler in X-RQ-ID: 5172
> 'Tis only the beginning, dear Joerg :-)
What do you other readers of the digest feel? May I take up this challenge here? I write LONG articles when so challenged, so tell me if this offends, and I'll be back on private communication with Devin.
This one will go out regardless...
Divination:
Devin's concept of this spell reminds me of
telnet Orlanth@Middle.Air.Glo
with an interactive database on the other end.
> when someone casts Divination and asks Orlanth "Orlanth, what took place just
> south of Pairing Stone three days ago?" I would expect that he usually gets a
> correct answer.
I'd expect the answer "What interest is this for you, puny mortal? Go, find out yourself, don't bother me!" and a healthy dose of Impests.
Divinations like this are abusive, and not covered by the spell. I quote: "The air god will know IN A GENERAL FASHION about events occurring in the air" (Magic Book p.24, emphasis mine)
> Otherwise, might as well toss Divination, as the
> answer most lkely to be gotten is "I don't know, I was looking elsewhere at
> that moment"
Exactly the right attitude. Mundane events aren't the interest of deities, so why the Hellcrack should they concern themselves with such?
Divine Mind Police:
> No, no,no,no reading minds UNBIDDEN is the province of a very few Truth
> Deities.
Reading minds in general. All the other things are _communication_, i.e. the provider of the info actively offers these, not the requester dumping memory.
> "What the gods feed on, aren't intellectual processes (those mentioned above
> excepted), but the life-force ridden emotions. These are what they
> understand, and what they want."
> Betrayal is often an emotional process.
Outright betrayal, yes. Cunning manipulation, not at all, and cunning manipulation is the province of the bad guys in the cult. These bad guys obey the deities formulated will to the letter, and in communication with the deity give their ample proof of these actions, while they abuse cult mechanics to further their own goals in the name of the deity.
Faltikus the Good needn't be an illuminate. He can boast to his deity that he leads one of the very few Orlanth temples officially open in defiance of Lunar laws, and prove that he is the last bastion of Orlanth worship in a world where the Lunars suppress everything that is good.
> I think the deity quickly checks anyone for suspicious emotions,
> then investigates further those who don't pass muster.
This would violate the compromise, and is beyond the powers of most deities. Those deities who have the power to do so (notably Lhankor Mhy) seem to rely on the assumption that since the worshippers know they can do these things, they won't dare. How else do you explain all the famous Lhankor Mhy traitors?
> I agree that worshippers DO give something to their god, and I agree that
> these things are the two things you mention. However, I do not believe that
> that it is an even exchange.
Neither do I. The gods are on the receiving end.
> I believe that what the gods give to their
> worshippers, by direct means (like DI or Divine Magic) and by indirect means
> (e.g. Yelm gives sunlight) far outweighs what the gods get in return.
This is where we differ radically. You say Yelm gives the sunlight to Glorantha, I say Yelm profits from the sun shedding light on Glorantha. And he isn't the only one - other sun gods and sky gods profit from this fact as well, although to a lesser degree. Yelm, Yu-Kargzant, Ehilm, Sun Dragon, Somash and Elmal profit quite directly from this elemental power, and Yelm as the owner of the Secret Power of Fire (aka Rune) does so most. Yes, I propose there are several Sun gods attached to the One Sun of Glorantha. They are different entities, with varying powers, some (the Solar powers) overlapping, others being special to one of them (like the Rebirth myth to Yelm; the other sun gods have different reasons to let night happen).
The deities need the mundane world to survive; when the mundane world fails to support them, they wither away.
The mundane world on the other hand only needs the Secret Powers some deities hold; if these powers could be had without involving the deities the world would be as well off. Argrath's ritual of the net proves this, and the Westerners as well as the Easterners have recognized this.
As I said before, the deities can exist in a very limited way without any worship. In this form they are reduced to the power which distinguishes them from other Godplane inhabitants, limited spirits like Firshala, Lightning Boy or many other Praxian spirits. They can gain additional powers by ganging up and sharing their powers with other deities - the pantheon effect, with lots of associate magic, the can gain subservient Godplane entities who provide them with their powers in return for shelter and participation in their flow of powers - this is generally restricted to the greater deities, who hold Secret Powers (not limited to owning one Rune - Kyger Litor and Aldrya have Secret Powers which stem from crucial combinations of Runes), or they can gain the support of mundane entities and by their MP feed gain access to the basic powers of the world, take a share in the Public Domain of Secret Powers available to all deities which can concentrate enough energy sources to fuel a Great or Major Temple. (This manifests in their ability to gain access to and to deal out Common Divine magic.)
> Therefore, the difference in this equation is filled by devotion. The gods
> give out their powers and demand not only MP but devotion as well.
What is devotion to a god, other than the will to give more than to take?
> It seems a bit as if the system you are arguing for places gods more in the
> need of mortals than vice versa. I just do not see the gods as emasculated
> and beholden to mortals in that way.
If they wantto continue to bask in energy, they are. If they are complacent with the attention they get from the natural forces that feed them, fine for them. IMO this is the difference between Kolat, who relies solely on the natural forces of the winds, and Orlanth, who relies heavily on the support of his culture. The difference makes Orlanth great, but also vulnerable to the Red Goddess.
J> The worshipper would have to provide this information willingly.
> That is what I have postulated all along.
Not to my reading. In your variant, willingness is compulsory. So much for free will...
> If he does not, the god will make the initiate inactive. I don't see the
> deities as so beggered for MP that they must plead with their worshippers to
> get it. Maybe a new deity like Firshala must be less picky, but Orlanth can
> certainly afford to make inactive initiates who won't open themselves to him.
No, he cannot. Every initiate he makes inactive further weakens him in his fight against the Red Goddess, who threatens to rob him off his Secret Power, the control and possession of the Middle Airs.
The example of Orlanth and the Red Goddess is the most obvious, but competition for the Secret Powers or at least partial use of them is fierce among Godplane denizens and mundane competitors like dragons, wizards and (super)heroes. Ever since Time replaced Creation From the Void, there is is only so much power to be manipulated, and has to be shared among all competitors. The deities, lacking free will, can only hold on the powers they have brought into Time, or which have been given to them within Time.
> I have trouble with this sort of "fire sale" type situation, where the
> deities need to scrape up every last MP from worshippers. The gods, IMO, can
> afford to be choosy.
Not at all, IMO. They might need to be choosy in order not to lose their grip on their powers, their identity, but this is assured by the rituals which their priests enforce.
> If the gods were that desparate for MP, why aren't they competing to give
> their worshippers tons of powers and goodies, which not only increases the
> power of" your worshippers, but gets you a whole bunch of new ones? Why make
> it so hard to become an initiate (i.e. those without parents in the cult must
> pass 3 of 5 skill tests)? Why not welcome in anyone who wants to join the
> cult?
Because the danger of an infection with wrong traits. Your Nazi mind police deities could take anyone in, and let their priesthood kill off anyone who doesn't fit their picture, for a better Glorantha. (Look at the Red Goddess, look at Gbaji.)
> Yes, deities recognize mortal fallibility. And a deity won't care about a
> minor transgresison, other than sending a minor reprisal ro simply informing
> the priest of such minor transgression (if that). It is major stuff, like
> Cacodemons in the Yelmalio service that bother me.
I don't see why. As long as the ogre does obey all cult strictures ("Eat no meat at all" and "Eat no meat but birds" won't work for ogres, obviously) and furthers the cause of Yelmalio, I see no problems with ogre Yelmalians. As long as they eat their victims not on Fireday or in Fire-season, if they have that geas, they could be exemplary Templars and highly regarded fighters against the Zorak Zoran cult, for instance. Their actions could further the cause of Yelmalio much more than taint it.
I think in the Dara Happan Sun Dome cult in the Lunar Empire tame ogres will have their chance. They're bound to botch it sooner or later, but in the meantime they can work for the good of their cult.
> Letting traitors gain cult powers is not a mundane concern. It is a highly
> significant concern and likely to get cult relics stolen, altars desecrated,
> and priests assassinated. These are bad for that selfsame community.
Now you get over the top. What if the cult relics are simply used against a designated foe of the cult, by a cultist who happens to belong to another cult?
Asassination of priests and desecration of altars is against the interest of the multiply initiated - why destroy one's own power base, and commit so blatant sacrilege that all powers painfully earned are made void?
Let's get away from the chaos example, and take a combination not entirely out of possibilities: an initiate of both Orlanth and Yelmalio. (Such as a clan elder of the Vantaros tribe, initiate to both Yelmalio as his cult of choice, and Orlanth Rex as his cult of office.)
This individual woud be able to use Yelmalio cult relics and magics for Orlanth cult purposes, and vice versa, as long as he doesn't violate any cult restrictions. In a raid on Snake Pipe Hollow, the Ivory Plinth or the Skyfall Lake trolls he'd work in the interest of both deities, and could get the help of both. In a conflict with co-religionists of either cult in a tribal or clan affair using the divine and spirit magic of the cult is all right with both deities.
Alternatively take a Yelmalio cum Seven Mothers cultist from the Tarsh Sun Dome temple (mentioned in CoP). This individual would be an effective fighter against Storm enemies, where both 7M and Yelmalio interests coincide, and would still be an able chaos fighter or darkness fighter even though being somewhat co-religionist.
> OK. WF Issue 12 page 19. "DIVINATION & DIVINE INTERVENTION" by Greg Stafford.
> "The god is incapable of invading a person's mind [d.c. - invading is
> different from being invited in]. The knowledge which the Rune Lords and Rune
> Priests give to the god must be volunteered by the Rune level. It is possible
> to keep private thoughts private from the god."
> So far seems to favour you...but:
> "IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO KEEP ONE'S THOGUHTS ABOUT THE GOD PRIVATE, FOR
> POSITIVE OR NEGATIVE. A deity will know when a Rune Master loses faith, plots
> against him, or whatever"
> Capitalizations are my emphasis.
Obviously.
To plot directly against the deity is one thing, to make oneself the centrepiece of all worship to the deity is another thing. This is what Lokamayadon did _before_ he helped create Osentalka, therefore _before_ he became an illuminate.
Still, acting against _his_ interests was to act against the Orlanth cult's interest since _he_ was the key figure in Orlanth worship, therefore the defection of the Dragon Pass Orlanthi from the Broken Council could not be as complete as the trolls' or dragonewts' withdrawal. Lokamayadon never violated his bond to Orlanth in this project, he stressed the cooperation with all the word the Compromise brought, and made this aspect paramount in the outer face of the cult. To attack this aspect was to attack the cult, however, and could be sensed by Orlanth as emotion of betrayal. In this way, Orlanth himself reduced his worshippers who defended the non-official politics, which were in rhyme with his original intentions, to heretics and blasphemers.
This is how Glorantha works, proven by history.
I never advocated that one could go to a temple and sacrifice for divine magic with the intention to harm the cult. However, it is possible to sacrifice for divine magic at a temple and use them in a selfish way, and to harm people who are not foes of the cult.
Orlanthi can use Lightning in a clan war against Orlanthi. If an Orlanth initiate who happens to be a 7Mother initiate as well (such as Bolthor Hairybreeks) uses Orlanth magic to further the Lunar interests which happen to coincide with his own tribal (Orlanthi) interests against Orlanthi enemies, this doesn't make this use a sacrilege, but a legitimate application of the powers Orlanth gave to his followers.
Likewise a 7Mother initiate could be a renowned chaos hunter who destroyed malevolent chaos wherever he found it, maybe even using chaos powers himself to do so. Malevolent chaos is fought by the Red Goddess and her Mothers after all, so he is behaving perfectly well. If he regards a chaotic sanctioned by an Imperial official as malevolent and kills the chaotic, he has done so for the good and furtherance of his cult, and won't have to face any religious reprimands for religious reasons. If the chaotic was an important Lunar agent, he might suffer similar consequences like the poor Orlanthi character in MOB's amusing story about the Guided Teleport reception room. These are inflicted by the priesthood only, _not_ by the deity.
> It is possible that Greg only thinks RUne levels are subject to the kind of
> scrutiny I am suggesting. I believe that the gods would give a cursory look
> at all Initiates. But in any case, the argument that only Truth Cults can
> know such information is put to paid by Greg's writing.
No. Greg explicitly states that the deity cannot invade the mind of _any_ worshipper, not even Rune levels. _Only Rune levels_ can provide the deity with direct information via a single prayer; common initiates need either joint or continued effort to get a message through, unless they use the Divination spell to tell their deity. The deity can only perceive information the worshipper actively provides, or when the worshipper invokes the deity in his thoughts. A casual blaspheming like "Curse <deity's> <offal>" might earn the blasphemer a slightly negative taint in the aura, but won't be plotting against the deity. The intention to assassinate a priest of your deity because he's doing the work of the deity is sacrilegious, the intention to kill the same priest because he killed your brother in a raid is a honorable and perfectly all right plan to the deity, and while it might earn you the retribution of the mundane organisation of the cult, it shouldn't earn you the enmity of the deity - unless the priest in question has established his killing of the brother as necessary for the cult to the deity. The intention to suppress any worship to the deity is hostile to the deity and will earn its displeasure; this is what keeps Krogar Wolfhelm from attempting to close the temple officiated by Faltikus the Good.
> Greg's writing certainly implies that other non-Truth oriented gods CAN read
> the minds and emotions of Rune Levels at teh very least, which is a giant
> step beyond what you have proposed.
Greg states that the deity can read the informations directed to it, nothing more.
> I choose to carry that step one step
> further, which seems logical IMO.
No. By carrying this further, you violate the delicate balance Greg sought to maintain.
> The god is especially attuned to thoughts and emotions conerning him. These
> are the only one's the initiate is required to set forth. Greg's writing
> supports this sort of selectiveness.
The initiate is required to _formulate_ these thoughts to the deity. The emotions are a different matter, but they are a phenomenon tied to the flow of life-force. If the life force flows into the right direction, no other emotions will be directed at this time of contact. If the life force doesn't flow to the deity, the deity will have reason to complain. This means that if the emotions of the worshipper override his willingness to donate his life force to the deity.
I asked why the deity should mind-police the initiates.
> Because the Illuminate might be plotting to perform some nefarious deed.
In this case the deity is helpless anyway. Please let's keep out illuminates for a while, they are an exception to most of the rules.
> "The deity has lost the free will to reject any worshipper who obeys all the
> rules, whatever the worshippers mindset."
> I refuse to believe the deities are hobbled THAT much. I may be swayed to say
> that the gods are nothing but big spirits, but I refuse to believe they are
> nothing but big BOUND spirits.
The gods bound themselves by the most binding oaths to the Compromise. (I think they swore by Styx...) These oaths are irrevocable, and limit them in their activities up to this extet that they are committed to accept whoever fits the criteria for acceptability. The exact nature of these criteria are defined by the priesthood, not by the deity, and may vary over time or distance. Lokamayadon managed to raise the criteria to a limit where everyone but Harmast Barefoot failed, without plotting against his god in a way the god could have taken offense in.
> "So the god only would sense if the worshipper seriously resented the
> deity? Such a worshipper wouldn't turn up at the service..."
> If I'm a Krarsht worshipper, and I need a Flight Spell (or two) to
> assassinate someone about whom I have a contract, and all I have to do to get
> such a spell is become an Orlanth worshipper and do all of the mumbo-jumbo
> correctly, then why the heck wouldn't I turn up at worship service?
First I need to pass all the preliminary filters of the Orlanth religion, and I need to avoid outright sacrilege against any of my cults. If I manage this balance without being illuminated, I can participate in and benefit of both cults.
> Not so strange if the worshipper IS devoted and has nothing to hide AND wants
> somethign in return from the deity. In this case, what has the worshipper to
> lose?
His free will, and thereby his value to the deity. I regard this complete dumping of intentions to the deity as an act of extreme zealousness, and one dangerous to the cult, since all pettyness is forced upon the deity, all imperfection the worshipper suffers from will be forced upon the deity. Only deities of forgiveness can cope with this, which is why Xiola Umbar survived largely unchanged where Zorak Zoran was turned upside down.
--
-- Joerg Baumgartner joe@sartar.toppoint.de
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.7 : Fri 10 Oct 2003 - 01:35:58 EEST