From: Barron Chugg (bchugg@leland.stanford.edu)
Date: Thu 21 Jul 1994 - 11:05:59 EEST
Hello All.
>Barron writes:
>
>"Devin, Bryan and Joerg: Could you guys stop with the looooong
> point by point comments/flames on each other? Please?"
>
>Consider it taken offline. Joerg, Bryan, if this is still worth beating into
>the ground, can we take it off line? Otherwise, I will start to think of my
>next controversial and flame inducing topic of conversation :-)~
Thanks, consider this greatly appreciated.
> Priests
>of Etyries can worship successfuly in Issaries temples across occupied Sartar
>and in Pavis.
Where is this mentioned? I don't doubt you at all, I'd just like to see the specifics. Anyway, it fits with some interesting ideas, see below.
> Both the Irripi Ontor and Etyries cults
>were born directly from their lightbringer parent cults, so to what extent
>are they worshiping the same gods?
This would tend to explain why Orlanth is so opposed to the RG and the other cults are less so. Orlanth is in danger of being replaced, while the other LBs will just have to change statues. Very devious...
> This is important because doctrine for
>Etyries worshipers may be considered blasphemy by Issaries.
I think that should be "considered blasphemy by Issaries cults in the DL/Prax area." This could be just another exaample of a regional variation (an idea I am becoming more and more enamored of). The Pelorian idea of "good trade" may be quite different from the Manirian.
>Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 5194
>B> The problem is that I (and I think many others) have is that we are
>B> conditioned based on our various studies of history in many areas.
>B> So we go in with preconcieved ideas as to what is accurate.
>
>Actually, in my impression, inequality between the sexes only really got
>going after the industrial revolution. The man was now out there
>working and the woman stayed at home and cared for the kids. Previously
>the husband and wife were a team on the farm/cottage industry, with the
>wife doing much of the work. At least I've read a couple of
>articles/books that reach this conclusion.
If you could reference me to a few of those books I'd appreciate it. In fact, I agree with you wrt peasants. The relationship was more of a team than a heirarchy. But, when I look at even slightly higher classes the seperation becomes more and more explicit. Then add in other cultures and there is further disparity (not all cultures, mind you, but a majority). Given a choice I'd like to have your perspective, makes history less depressing (and more playable...).
(Quoting Jon Green)
>J> 1. Unless an individual invites a God to inspect their intentions
>J> their "soul" in ritual), the mind of any character is opaque ...
>
>I would tend to rule that even in this case the god would be limited by
>its permanent nature. The god can't understand humans because humans
>are in time... The relationship with the god will be scrutinized in
>this case but that is the only thing the god can micromanage.
Well, does the god really look, or does the worshipper only think the god is looking? I wouldn't think people with guilty consciences would be "opening themselces" anyway. So, the person that opens themself with a clear conscience is rewarded with a feeling of well being (a natural result of the act), while a person with lower motives will likely feel guilty/unworthy. Or, to go to a bit more mystical level, the opening is the surrendering to the runepath of the god. If you are "in tune" with the god, then the path is much easier. If you are "out of tune" then you are in for a bumpy ride. Now, worshippers will interpret these experiences based on their culture. If you have the bumpy ride you will probably feel "unworthy" or "bad", you may even manage to summon an Impest or two. If you are "filled by the glory of the god" (that is, if you complete the RPath easily) you will feel that you are "doing the right thing". Now, the cynical follower will know that the feelng is not related to the will of the god and is merely a reflection of the ritual. He is much less likely to suffer any guilt or SoRs. Reasonable?
> With
Or, the RLvls are more often on these RPaths and have many more
opportunities to "check their alignment". On the HHD, the ritual is much
more involved and powerful, thus minor flaws can be magnified.
>RLvls the god is monitering constantly so for the HHD everybody goes up
>a step in godly monitering?
Quick comment on missing HDs: The relationship between the god and worshipper is one that requires maintainance. The follower must walk and rewalk the paths of the god in order to keep his connection. For an initiate, once a season is sufficient for minimum upkeep and for a LM, once a year (I think those are the right numbers, I don't have any references here). For RLvls much more time is required (90% or 50%), frequent prayers and more intimate involvement in cult rituals.
Quick idea on advancement: First off I have adopted the HHD spell renewal for initiates. Now, imagine that as an initiate advances their renewal becomes easier (eg. from HHD to SHD). This is because they are getting into closer contact with their deity. After the SHD, the next step would be to become an Acolyte or a RLvl. I just like the idea of smearing out cult levels, so that the steps are smoother. That way not _all_ PC initiates are looking to RLvl as their next advancement. In fact, this SHD renewal might be a sort of "RLvl in training" step. Like a Brown or Green belt training with the Black belts.
>J> Not necessarily; when an ogre worships, the ogre's POW is filtered of
>J> the worshipper's ogre nature. But I *love* the idea of _malicious_
>
>This has some kind of cleansing effect? Why?
That's easy, the nature of the ogre is to deceive. They live by fitting into the local culture and destroying it from within. In my view, the ogre who worships a "lawful" deity is following the Ogre Path by way of that deity. That's why they don't get screwed by SoR or initiation tests.
>J> mass worship of an enemy God by antagonistic and powerful forces
>J> seeking to poison or subvert the God!
>
>What I meant was: Maybe ogres are a chaos plot to do just that. Maybe
>the POW of ogres is tainted in such a way that the gods can't detect it,
>but in such a way that it does change them (weakens them?).
>____________________________
>Nick Brooke in X-RQ-ID: 5222
>N> Is there some difference between this and hostile HeroQuesting?
>
>Well in what I was suggesting it is a slow subtle poisoning of the god
>with the ogre's chaos...
The difference is that all you need for the worship method is a bunch of deluded worshippers, not heroquesters. Granted, the HQ method is faster, more powerful and more efficient, but it takes more resources. In fact, I don't think ogres are necessary. Just take a negative aspect of the god, make sure your rituals are still acceptable and you can start to emphasis that aspect. Like in Peloria you could have a cult of Orlanth-Immature, Violent Rebel. If you get enough people doing the dance you might even be able to influence other cults.
>_____________________________
>Barron Chugg in X-RQ-ID: 5229
>
>B> Another thought, do people think that the Glorantha of today is a
>B> lower magic world than it was in the RQ2 era?
> .......
>B> What do other people think,
>B> are we moving in the direction of mundanity?
>
>One of the things I liked about Glorantha was that the fact that there
>was pervasive magic made the cultures operate differently from standard
>European models. This struck me as not being the case in most fantasy
>worlds. In them the magic didn't seem to have any effect whatsoever on
>the social structures.
>
>I do feel that something has been lost through copying too much from
>Earth cultures. This has lead to (IMO) cultures that work too much like
>Earth cultures despite the magic. Which has lead to the magic being
>de-emphasized.
We still get the magic in the myth and stories, but it does seem less a part of everyday life.
>I'm not positing overly involved gods here, i just want the fact that
>spirit and divine magic is available to have some sort of effect on the
>way the cultures work. The few notes on wounds and the like in the
>intro to the the Glorantha Book (G:CotHW) have not (IMO) been worked
>into the basis of the cultures as presented.
One of the ways I try to explain magic in Glorantha to players is with a few, concrete examples. Like the Sartarite boy who cuts his leg while hunting. He goes home to mom (the good Ernaldan) and she says a few words and makes a few gestures and viola, the wound is healed. Or the "wood cutting" song the his father sings before work (bladesharp, or strength). The shepard who knows the song of fleet running to catch errant sheep (mobility). The fire starting words for getting the camp fire going quickly (ignite). The list can go on, and these are just the spirit magic. How about the _need_ for Bless Crops in Genertela? Or the White Woman who cures diesease with a touch? Or, to quote loosely from Dorastor, the Orlanthi Rune Lords flying over an area to make an inspection? All these are everyday life uses of magic and should be emphasised to show why Glorantha is such a magical place. In the players' book for G:CotHW, it asks (again, from memory) "DO you believe that your uncle _really_ killed a bear with his fists?" Sure, why not? Strength, Ironhand, Protection. Whap, thump, blammo!
In fact, see my comments about preconditioning and history above. IMHO, this is just another example.
_Not_ going to Convulsion...:-(
Barron
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