From: Peter Metcalfe, CAPE Canty (CHEN190@csc.canterbury.ac.nz)
Date: Fri 12 Aug 1994 - 15:04:51 EEST
The Sun debate.
Joe speaks
>It is my hobby to argue against the universality etc of Yelm as the True Sun
>God.
A devils advocate huh?
>He is so in the Monomyth and possibly that means that he is the one and only
>sun god ever since the late second age (although with somash present, I doubt
>that)
Somash is a regional variation of Yelm. The reason for the variation was that during the darkness Soravatoor, the son of heaven, came down and instituted dayzatar worship and calyz, lodril amongst others. When Yelm came back to life, the cult of Somash developed its peculiarites to explain why the Great Emperor wasn't supreme in Teshnos.
>I believe the celestial emperor Yelm was not necessarily identical to the Sun
>which circled around the spike.
The Dara happans call him Yelm and identify him as the sun, The Kralori call him Yelm and identify him as the Sun, Old Orlanthi mythology cite him as the evil emperor and when confronted with evidence by khordavu accepted him as the sun. Pamaltelan mythology (which was too complex to be touched by the God learners) state that Yelm ruled the North (which does not conflict with him ruling at the spike) was killed and brought back to life and identified him as the Sun. Praxian myth talks of Yelm fighting with high rules and distant powers and states he was killed and brought back to life and identifys him as the sun. Furthermore the ten cities of Murzaharm has Yuthubars as in the far centre. I submit that the far centre talked of here is NOT high above but on the spike which was the centre of the world. thus the Yelm mentioned in the GRAoY can be taken to be the celestial emperor and the present sun.
>Antirius was present at Murzaharm's tests for Emperor.
Well done! I hadn't noticed that. Of course it really does reopen old wounds in the Elmal/Yelmalio debate.
My idea of a cult secret for Orlanth adventurous.
>and not a single orlanthi myth does.
You misunderstand. the Orlanthi myth would not speak of such a thing as it was a hidden secret only to be revealed in the iniation of a wind lord. If they wrote it down it would give the game away.
>>this makes elmal, an orlanthi excuse for the sun. the real truth was a cult
>>secret hidden at the highest levels
You disagree because the God Learners did not have Orlanth flee in terror in the monomyth.
By the time the God Learners questioned the Orlanthi, the latter had by now recognized that the Evil Emperor slain was the Sun God Yelm. they didn't change the written myth because the interpretation changes for readlily than the written word. The detail of orlanth fleeing the death of Yelm was something forgotten because it didn't make sense. The orlanthi had redefined the myth of the initiation of the Wind lord. After all the worshippers of Yelm had revealed their true colours by worshipping the evil gbaji cult so Yelm was evil and rightfully slain. the God Learners were the people you remeber thought Ernalda and dendara were the same despite them having different mothers (Ernalda -> Gata, Dendara -> Empress Earth; for further details read songs of the Dryads in GoG). Their monomyth was full of shortcut and fudged answers to things they didn't comprehend fully. What chance did they have of realizing that orlanth fled the scene in terror.
And now the OOO debate
>>and so they would not be violating dictates by the decamony
>I'm curious about these dictates. Where did you draw them from?
I made them up. I was trying to explain why Gemborg revolted against the OOO. I felt that the Nidan decamony would have been trying to crack dwon on conclave openhandism since they didn't want Greatway and Gemborg spilling Dwarf secrets for gaudy babubles. The dictates are possibly arguments that the Dwarf of Gemborg was betraying the way of mostal by being subserviant to trolls. these cutting remarks stung his mostali code of conduct and so he felt compelled to revolt. If you have a better idea than I'm willing to hear it.
>From trollpak, I take it that Zzabur fought in the I fought we won.
I wouldn't be so radical. the Godlearners said it applied to all races and not all human cultures. If you look at the troll battles you see it says about the IFWW battle in that the survivors formed the first council. Since Zzabur was in Brithos and not part of the first council, I don't think he took part. Furthermore in the Dragonewt Issue of Wyrms Footnotes it is stated that the Dragonewts resisted chaos in two centres - one in strength, the Kalori Dragon Empire and the other in weakness: the name of the Dragonewt who particpated in the IFWW for the Dragonewts of Dragon pass. So Trolls, Dwarfs, Elves, Dragonewts and Orlanthi took part (as well as the wheels) but not the Kralori. hence Zzabur didn't take part.
>>The OOO council was broken when the dwarves revolted for an unknown reason and
>>shattered when the OOO backed the losing side.
>Huh, the dwarf revolt was in 123, the broken council attacked Dragon Pass and
>Kethaela in 280. in the meantime the OOO released the Reightarm Islanders
>when the waertagi arrived, but he remained in control.
I was compressing two distinct events into one sentence and apologize for any confusion caused. The Gemborg revolt disrupted the OOO's magic but it held. Perhaps he gave away the rightarm to hold the remainder of kethaela better.
>>>"argan argar was active during the darkness, aiding anybody who called upon
>>>him."
>>I think this went as far as his borders during the grey age.
>First, he aided the poeple of his wife true, but his borders were extending as
>far as there was surface darkness. Ralios, dragon pass and South Peloria
>certainly recieved his help.
Evidence of Argan Argar worship in halikiv nowadays is not evidence for Argan Argar influence in halikiv during the grey age/dawn. i submit that Halikiv was an ordinary troll queedom just like Dagori Inkarth until the OOO brought it under his influence. South Peloria? What is your evidence?
Cheers
the Blue Wizard aka "Whitelaw"
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