Hopefully the last word on the Kitori for now

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From: David Cake (davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au)
Date: Tue 18 Oct 1994 - 22:22:19 EET


Hopefully the last word on the subject for now, though I may do a Kitori 'what my Father told me' soonish.

>David Cake persists in his Two Tribes origin theory:
>> I think that the marriage probably happened at the
>> time of the OOO's rule, with AA rule providing some cultural links between
>> the two, and allied troll and human tribes being politically expedient for
>> both.
>
>A tribal merger at the instigation of the OOO is getting early enough to
>be more Mythology than History. If it were this ancient, their stories
>would be unlikely to acknowledge a diverse origin, even if it were
>"really" true (which I also remain skeptical of).
>

        Its only three or four hundred years or so! Ancient history, but still recorded. And in any case, just because something is old enough to be mythical doesn't mean that it is forgotten, if it is important. As for your scepticism as to what really happened - I accept David Halls info from Chaosium, which says that they started as two tribes, trolls native to the Troll Woods, and human Argan Argari refugees from the OOO's reign.

>> Think of KL as taking the place of Ancestor worship and shamanism
>> among the humans.
>
>Hard to think of it this way when you tell me the humans don't do it. 

        
        I think that there is dfinately lots of shamanism among the humans,
but I don't think that the shamans run the place, as they might in a primarily shamanic society. I think that they have more shamanism than the average Sartarites.

>If
>each worships separate sets of ancestors, or one doesn't at all, then this
>rather underscore the separateness of their origins.
>

        I think that most ancestor worship is directed at the clan level anyway, so ancestor worship is always about separate sets of ancestors (isn't that what clans are?). They do consider the troll and human clans to be related, though. Its just that those very old ancestors (clan founders, etc.) aren't summoned that often. Summoning great-great grandfather is more common.

>> > I'm thinking of something which has KL-style "ancestor"
>> >worship shades to it, as well as being a founder cult per se. This is
>> >a cop out in the sense of effectively "relabelling" religious strands to
>> >be more acceptable to all.
>
>> I like this idea, but I am unsure why you need a single founder
>> deity to make it work.
>
>You don't, but you'd need what is effectively a single _cult_, worshipped,
>or at least acknowledged, by the whole tribe.
>

        I think that it is a flavour of ancestor worship, worshipped by the humans as plain old ancestor worship, by the trolls intermixed with KL, and by both as linked to AA.

        I do think that they have a single cult worshipped by both tribes, but I think that it is AA, and the ancestor worship that they both partake in is less important, being mostly at clan level, though underscoring the AA domination by acknowledging common ancestors.

>> > (most trolls don't even have tribes, mind you)
>
>> Look at page 39 of Uz Lore, which consists mostly of a list of
>> troll tribes - most trolls do have tribes, generally springing from a
>> common ancestress.

>> The Kitori allow human clans, but apart from that are
>> probably organised on relatively conventional lines.
>
>By virtue of not having a common ancestor, they surely can't be.
>

        I think that they acknowledge a common ancestress, a troll queen who married the human king. That does not mean that the Queen is seen as ruler of the tribe, though.

>> From the point of view of the Elder Kin of Dagori Inkarth, I think
>> trolls allowing humans into their tribe is their mistake, and their
>> foolishness, and welcome to it [...] But allowing humans into the KL cult
>> is vile [...] I wouldn't want those folks mad at me.
>
>I think those folks would consider this alleged distinction between joining
>the cult and joining the tribe petty-fogging and pedantic, and say so
>loudly as they ate your brains.
>

        I think that trolls can definately distinguish between the tribe and the cult. They acknowledge all the trollkin as members of the tribe - but certainly wouldn't let them in the cult without a lot of proving themselves. KL is very much about trolls as a species, and the trolls are very picky about who they might acknowledge as a troll.

        Try telling the Elder Kin that all the trollkin tribe members should be allowed into the cult!

        And note that most troll cults allow non-troll members - indeed, in some cases are largely made up of non-trolls (Gorakiki frex). It is only KL that requires initiates to be trolls, and I think that it is a major tenet of the cult.

        I think that your average troll would find your non-distinction between tribe and cult to show a lot of ignorance!

>The nature of KL adoption is that anyone who has undergone it _is_ a troll,
>even if they look kinda funny and not 100% uzko-like. What is required
>to satisfy this may vary considerably, even to the point of being less
>regularly fatal then the "standard" version. Doubtless never pain or risk
>free, though.
>

        I agree that the Kitori trolls may be a little more relaxed about adopting their fellow tribe members - but only possibly. I certainly think that the humans who wiosh to join KL (and I can't see that many doing it) do still need to undergo ritual rebirth - but they might escape the ceremonial dismemberment. I think that there is a chance that Kitori trolls might consider Kitori humans as being relations, and thus part troll, which eases the adoption ceremony a fair bit. I certainly don't think that they consider them eligible to join the cult as trolls, and I think if they did it would be highly heretical. 

        Cheers
                Dave

>Alex.

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