From: David Cake (davidc@cs.uwa.edu.au)
Date: Thu 27 Oct 1994 - 03:55:14 EET
Replying to Alex on the Kitori (though I am going to largely ignore the
Kitori, as I am sure no one is interested any longer, and just talk about
trolls).
>> >If
>> >each worships separate sets of ancestors, or one doesn't at all, then this
>> >rather underscore the separateness of their origins.
>
>> I think that most ancestor worship is directed at the clan level
>> anyway, so ancestor worship is always about separate sets of ancestors
>> (isn't that what clans are?).
>
>It's what human clans are, but I don't think trolls make this tribe/clan
>distinction, at least not at all sharply. Which raises the question of
>how the Kitori are organised: like a "federal" human tribe, like a rather
>amorphous troll tribe, with less marked subdivisions, or with each "half"
>organised by species?
>
It is is true that the troll idea of a tribe is more like a super-clan, in that the structure above the clan is still ancestrally based, rather than just a historical alliance. But for ancestor worship purposes, the inter-clan lineages are probably too many generations away to be important in the day to day ancestor worship - mos people are more interested in worshipping great grandmother to bother with great^16 grandmother, who would probably punish you for your impudence anyway, or not know who you are. The clan ancestors are acknowledged, but I don't think that they have that much to do with the average ancestor worship ceremony other than an important name to be invoked.
In other words, wether the clans in the tribe share common ancestors or not does not matter that much, as they are almost never invoked.
>> Try telling the Elder Kin that all the trollkin tribe members
>> should be allowed into the cult!
>
>No problem, since they already are: all the other trollkin are just
>tribal or individual property, not tribe members.
>
Small problem of terminology here. We were actually argueing about initiation requirements, not cult membership, which was not made clear. The trollkin who are tribe members are almost all lay members (and happy with their tribe member status, as tribe members are not food, except occasionally for their relations). I am sure that among the Kitori humans can become lay members of KL - but they will find at least as difficult as a trollkin would, and probably more, so it is at least a great honour.
Note that any trollkin born into the tribe is a tribe member.
So I rephrase my comment as 'try telling the Elder Kin that all
trollkin tribe members should be initiated!'.
>> It is only KL that requires initiates to be trolls, and I think that it
>> is a major tenet of the cult.
>
>Just as it's a major tenet of all "normal" troll clans/tribes that members
>be trolls, and have the blood of the tribal ancestor.
>
No. Troll tribes/clans include trollkin, who are NOT regarded as trolls. Line of descent is important, but the Kitori get around that by their sacred marriage. Some troll clans may well include other non-trolls.
The two things (tribe and cult) should not be confused. A troll understands that trolls of other clans are still members of the same KL cult, and many cults and sub-cults cross tribal boundaries.
It is true that religious power is much the same thing as political or social power, but this does not mean that the social organisation is the same as the cult organisation. Rather, it means that if you have sufficient following and clout they will often accomodate you religiously as well.
Cheers
Dave
>From: jacobus@sonata.cc.purdue.edu (Bryan J. Maloney)
>Subject: How hot is AN oakfed?
>
>The only thing on which I draw a complete blank is the fact that the shamans
>of the Praxians have summoned an oakfed. How powerful is this particular
>oakfed? I'm not talking about the Theyalan "Oakfed"--a demigod but the
>Praxian "an oakfed", which I'm taking to be a large elemental or fire
>spirit of some kind, but still within mortal comprehension. Ideally, I'd
>like to know how many Byzantine fire siphons it would be equivalent to.
>
From what I have seen of Nomad Gods, it looks a lot like the Praxians at Moonbroth summoned THE Oakfed, or something pretty equivalent. At least the 'Oakfed' counter is specifically noted to be a major god in NG, and carries a pretty sizable combat factor (16 versus about 3 for a medium infactry unit, 5-6 for heavy cavalry) and magical ability. The counter may represents more than one being, though, as Oakfed may have an entourage.
Converting to an equivalent number of Byzantine fire syphons is probably rather difficult! (in any case, a hell of a lot!). I had some dissatisfactions with Warhamster, and looked at using other miniature systems (like WRG7) for Gloranthan battles and just gave up. I will probably use basically Warhamster with a few extra modifiers and large changes to command and movement. Conventional miniature systems, built as they are around standard troop types, just lose too much of the Gloranthan flavour for my taste.
>From: garydj@ditard.dit.gov.au
>Elementals
>
>Another rulesish thing I have never been happy with is the idea
>elementals have hit points. Like binding spirits into animals, its
>seems a hold over from RQ2. Elementals have SIZ, but not CON. To me,
>this means they should have armour points, but not hit points. Just
>like an inanimate object has armour points, but not hit points.
To me the distinction between armour points and hit points has very little to do with the difference between animate and inanimate, it is simply the difference between rigid or tough materials and soft. Hard things (like weapons or Jolanti) have armour points, soft things (like people), have hit points, and things that are tough or hard on the outside (large arthropods, or armour encased people) have armour points protecting hit points.
The animate/ inanimate distinction is pretty irrelevent - trees tend more towards armour points, because they are tough, giant mushrooms tend towards hit points because they are soft.
I think of elementals as all being pretty soft, even gnomes (dirt rather than rock), so hit points are fine by me.
I do find it a bit odd that all elementals are strikeable by normal weapons, I admit. The concept of chopping up the darkness or fire with your sword takes some getting used to.
> I
>haven't worked out the exact details of how many armour points each
>elemental should have, but giving them armour points may mean they
>might not be so easily destroyed by a couple of good sword hits.
>
I usually have the magician who summoned them slap on some defensive magic, if possible.
>Gary James
>
Cheers
Dave Cake
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