From: Michael Hitchens (M.Hitchens@st.nepean.uws.edu.au)
Date: Tue 15 Nov 1994 - 07:05:05 EET
>> Does anyone agree with me that the God Learners seem to be winning?
>> The myths of all cultures seem to be evolving towards each other into
>> the mono-myth.
Nick Brooke
I don't think the monomyth is falling apart. I think people are realising the holes it had in it all along (there is a big difference). The point being I think those holes are getting smaller. Yelmalio is filling one of those holes,linking the Theyalan sun god to the Pelorian sun pantheon. Where there was once no relation between the two, one is growing, linking the two into a single (mono) mythology.
So I seem to be more in agreement with Jonas Schiott on this one, to whit
his comment:
> Ummm, maybe. Most of the evolution took place _during_ the GL's period, I
> would think. The rest is a result of a natural process of cultures trying
> to understand each other. Which of course means that the GLs had the basic
> idea right, they just took it to unhealthy extremes.
Jonas Schiott
(To summarise
Jonas thinks Elmal and Yelmalio are not the same god, but that the worshippers
who switched were not visited by Elmal's spirit of reprisal
"Because they _believed_ it was the same entity. Thus they were free from
the feelings of betrayal and guilt that the spirits use to find their
victims".)
I am not sure I like this. Does that mean if I eventually come to decide that my cult's rules are unreasonable, start breaking them because I don't think they make any sense (without any feelings of guilt, because they are senseless) and then eventually leave the cult because it's all become a joke, the spirits of retribution won't touch me? As long as I think I am right I won't suffer divine retribution? I can't see many gods/spirits of retribution working on the basis, "Well, they thought they were doing the correct thing so will leave them alone"... There may be no such thing as objective right and wrong, but there are actions etc that unnaceptable to each god.
>>why can not a Yelmalio Priest use divination to find out if the Elmal
>>worshippers are worshipping the same god?
>Because this is a question about mythology, not history. Gods, not knowing
>much about Time, make lousy historians.
If they are lousy historians, what can they answer but questions about
mythology? The question I pose should be really easy for a god to answer:
The god only knows what its worshippers tell it. It should therefore know who
those worshippers are.
Another reason why a Yelmali priest might ask this question is to see whether
there is any point trying to save the Elmali from the benighted, or is that
bestormed? :-), worship.
>>just what are the gods exactly? Nonexistent? Schizophrenic?
>>Do they exist as identifiable entities at all? Are they completely at the
>>mercy of their worshippers?
>He. The answer to all of these questions is _yes_. And no... maybe.
That makes life difficult for us poor GMs.
>>Can the myths (ie the state of the godplane) be altered other than by
>>heroquesting?
>A tricky one. It doesn't look that way. Not directly, anyway. I would say
>that if enough people believe something, a Hero will rise from the ranks to
>make an attempt at 'proving' it.
This is my opinion too.
Peter Metcalfe
Even if the worship is heretical, it's still the same god, the question could still be asked and the priest has even more reason to rescue the flock from the heretical Elmali priesthood. Religions have often been in interested in the question of: do you worship different gods or the same gods but in a different (and therefore probably wrong) manner.
>>If two Dara Happan Rune Priests of Yelm, one who believes Yelmalio is not
>>the son of Yelm and one who does, both cast Divination asking Yelm "Is
>>Yelmalio your son?" will they get the same answer (yes?) or will they be
>>answered according to their own beliefs?
>IMO both would recieve the Answer Yes.
That's what I think as well.
>You some kind of God Learner?
What are you going to do if I say yes? :-)
>Two seperate myths here. Humakt slew the Gaping Void with the True Sword.
>This turned it into the Stagnation whom Magasta overcame. If a Sword seeks
>help from Waterspirits in the HQ, he will be warping the characteristics of
>the waterspirits.
Not exactly what I had in mind, more the Humakti sticking his nose into the Magastan HQ.
>BTW Humakt doesn't have any friends. The Death Rune is that of Seperation.
>He has no Kinship ties or Associate Gods because that is Antithetical to his
>nature. So if a Sword managed to get Magasta as a associated cult, IMO he
>would lose reuable Sever Spirit at the very least.
I wasn't looking for Humakt to get an associate cult, just to prove he was better than any other war god. But, in this case, instead of fighting Magasta proving that magasta once took orders from him. He fights on Orlanth's side now and then but is not an associate of Orlanth. He (questor or god) wouldn't get any powers out of this, just the kudos of being the guy in charge and therefore acknowledged as pre-eminent.
>>Can the myths (ie the state of the godplane) be altered other than by
>>heroquesting? (YES/NO) Eg, if enough normal people believe, does it change?
>>(it being the mythical "truth" as represented by the god plane). (YES/NO)
>People can really only believe in Gods. They can't believe in certain acts
>for the acts have a mythic momentum of their own. To change that one
>requires a HQ.
This one seems to have got some debate. Some people say heroquesting is the only way to change the godplane, some say otherwise. I think there is little if any evidence for the later, but that does not mean it is impossible.
Colin Watson
>I think the essential point here is that the mapping of names to gods
>is purely subjective (IMHO). One man's Yelmalio is never exactly the same as
>another man's Yelmalio.
I agree names are subjective and the worship at two temples is rarely, if ever, identical. If I followed the practices of the sun dome, but called my god Elmal, would my high priest have Sunspear? I'd bet that he would. Would I be worshipping the god of the sun dome or the god of the Elmali clan? If they are not the same then I think the former (regardless of name).
>> Just WHAT are the gods?
Colin had a really hoopy answer to this one. I think I need to pose a new
question on this:
Are the gods self aware beings?
I think Colin would answer no, given his previous statements, but it is
over to him for clarification.
Boris Mikey
I like your model of the godplane. And I think Greg does not know what is the "True reality" of the godplane. My suspicion is that he does not want to. Because he does not want there to be a true reality to the god plane. He does not want things to work that way.
Rob Heinsoo
>I like Michael Hitchens' statement that the 'Lunars Win' future may turn out
>just as awful as King of Sartars' future. This certainly would highlight the
>importance of Compromise.
Hum. I don't want to take credit where it is not due. Greg told me, in late '92 that the Lunar book would have a very different future history from that in KoS. I don't know if that is still his intention (I certainly hope so though). I am not sure where I got the idea it would be just as bad as that in KoS. Greg may have told me, he may have implied it or I might actually have come up with it myself (but I would not claim that that is so).
Anyway, thanks to everyone for the answers to this and my questions about
clans.
Certainly food for thought.
I'd like to end this message with a repeat of my current question:
Are the gods self aware beings?
Michael
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