From: Joerg Baumgartner (rq4@sartar.toppoint.de)
Date: Mon 12 Jul 1993 - 11:49:18 EEST
Amazing how parallel ideas evolve. I was triggered by Paul's and Mike's
PRESENCE idea as well and wrote an article for Free INT 5 (out now,
plug plug) which held that concept, too. While I left out the
sorcerer's other self, I compared the fetch with the POW the initiates
sacrifice to their deities.
Loren writes:
> Here's the first piece of the meta-magic system. It explains how the
> current types of magic-worker use their Other Self to help their
> magic. I think it could easily be reverse-engineered to find general
> rules on how to initiate magic workers of new and/or unique paths.
I thnk at least quite a lot of us agree with this meta-rule approach
explicitely or only implicitely. I don't think that we get one general
rule for magic out of it, rather we get more.
> THE OTHER SELF
> Every magical practioner has an other self which must be molded in a
> particular way in order to use magic. The molding process is long and
> arduous or extremely dangerous.
Ths actually gives a new definition for rune ranks: people who have
developed their other self fully.
> The shaman forms his other self into a spiritual reflection of
> himself, an imitation of his own personality and his perceived
> identity in society. Once fully formed the shaman's other self is
> called a fetch.
Once fully formed... what about intermediate states?
> The sorceror forms his other self into a tool that helps power his
> magic. Each sorcerous tradition perceives this tool in its own unique
> way, as a void, a bonfire of magical energy, a magical well, a magical
> whirlwind, a meteor made of moonrock, or one of many other ways.
[ some names forit deleted ]
When we write sorcerer, whom do we mean: the adept, the apprentice, or
the student and higher ranks?
> The divine magician forms his other self into a pseudo-god, an
> imitation or reflection of the god he worships which can serve as a
> container for divine magic. Once formed the divine magician's other
> self is called a vessel. It is the vessel of the god, but because it
> is at least partially the possession of the divine magician it is not
> restricted by the Compromise unless the divine mage carries it into
> the mythic realm, where it becomes affected.
Paul writes: (>> is Loren)
>>Once formed the divine magician's other
>>self is called a vessel.
> Have you seen the current Paul & Mike draft? It went to OJ a week or
> two ago, in it we use the term "Vessel". (Just warning you so that you don't
> think we are stealing your terms.) We use "Vessel" for sorcerors, though.
> This seems to us more appropriate than using it for divine magicians, I think
> they have more of a link, or river, than a vessel.
I agree that initiates extend their self into the realm of their deity.
The parts of their souls (POW) "sacrificed" to the deity are actually
given to the deity for safekeeping and upholding the special link
through which the divine magic is obtained (and DI is worked).
(Note that I regard divine spells as paid for magic waiting to be
released. See my rantings in the dailies.)
I count even the POW sacrificed for divine magic as part of the divine
magicians other self, at least partly. In exchange the initiates gain
part of the divine spark necessary to work divine magic. (I feel that
there is no one-use divine magic, only uses that cannot be regained in
a lifetime or two. Dead places and hero-plane excepted.)
>> The divine magician forms his other self into a pseudo-god, an
> In our model we instead say that the priestess actually gives part of
> herself up into her goddess, forming a greater whole. Think of a Venn
> diagram:
> __________________
> / \
> / \
> / \
> / DEITY \
> | |
> | O - cult | SPIRIT / GOD PLANE
> | spirit |
> | |
> | /\ <--other self |
> | | | |
> ------------------------------------
> |__| <-- priestess
> MUNDANE PLANE
> Actually there would be many Initiates, cult spirits, etc. Temples
> would also bridge the gap between the two planes.
One problem I see in this are initiates of multiple cults. Do these
split their other selves? And how does associate divine magic fit into
this scheme?
What about mechanisms like Gift POW to ancestor spirits and the
And... does the team of five have an insight into Greg Stafford's view
POW-link sorcerers' apprentices create to learn the greater secrets of
maniplation? What about "multi-genre" magicians like cult-shamans,
sorcerer-priests of stygian heresies? Can all these be pressed into a
meta-rule?
of magic for Glorantha? All this meta-ruling works fine for worlds
created by the GMs, and can also be fitted into existing worlds with
less specificly stated views on magic, but RQ4 seems to be stuck with
Glorantha for good or bad.
But that oughtn't stop us from discussing...
-- Joerg Baumgartner rq4@sartar.toppoint.de 0,,
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