From: ngl28 (ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de)
Date: Fri 11 Feb 1994 - 16:31:15 EET
Joerg picking up a thread from Graeme Lindsell:
>Brian Maloney writes:
>> Ahem, what's this stuff about "bladesharp" as a "combat" spell. Every
>> sensible Orlanthi farmer knows that the PRIMARY use of the spell is to
>> get your plow through the tough bits of sod.
> No, every sensible Orlanthi farmer knows that using Death magic - like
> Bladesharp, which originated from Humakt - is a great way to get no crops
> at all, as Death is the opposite of Fertility.
No, Graeme (and Tim), within the Compromise Fertility can't exist without
death. To harvest means to kill, as ceremonies like Food Song and Peaceful
Cut show. In the less primative (spelling intended) societies which farm by
ploughing and mass sowing, ploughing is the death ritual which is performed
to allow for new fertility. (The actual kill during the harvest receives
its own festival, too).
Bladesharp=Plowsharp is a bit silly, too. Strength cast on the plowman
works better, IMHO, although I must admit never to have used a beast-drawn
plow. Who has?
Bladesharp, or better Whetting, is much more appropriate for harvesting teh
grain. Keep your sickle/hoe sharp, and work is more easy. (Yes, I did mow
one or two lawns.
> I've seen this proposal for giving all the battle magic spells of RQ2
> civilian spinoffs before, and I find it very weak. These spells were
> designed as combat magic; if we want to have spells for ploughs then the
> rules should have spells for ploughs. Some other spells (like Strength
> or Healing) have much more civilian uses, but there is no reason why
> Bladesharp should increase the ability of a plough at all: the sharpness
> of a blade does not determine your chance to hit: Bladesharp increases
> that through some other magical manner.
I have to agree here. The +5% to attack don`t help much with plowing or
mowing, so a more specialized spell like Whetting would rather really
sharpen a blade, and additionally keep it form dulling during its duration.
More a variant of Repair than Bladesharp.
A more sensible plow magic might be Straightfurrow which keeps the furrows
nice and parallel...
>> (Or is RQ4 going to abandon the wonderfully "civilian" feel that had been
>> building up and go back to a more "wargaming" style of RPG?)
> What is particularly "civilian" about the RQ3 spirit magic list? While
> I dislike the name "Battle Magic", at least it's honest - the majority
> of those spells were designed for combat. Look at how the combat gods
> tend to get more spells than non-combatant dieties: that's because there's
> more to give them.
RQ3 didn't have it. Sandy Petersen tried - not too successful, IMHO - to
>> Now, "bladesharp" at very high levels would be a different matter, and would
induce this feeling in his article on Folk Magic (now there is a better
term than Personal or Battle Magic), but by sticking with the old combat
oriented spells nothing much is won.
> If it's so useful for the farmer cults, they should offer Bladesharp 6...
Rather Whetting 6: increases sharpness (damage) by one per point, and
increases armour points (preserves keenness of edge and straightness/curve
of blade). Straightfurrow 6 on a spear might offer 6* +5% to hit, but no
increased damage - the blow is made harder to deflect from its aimed
target.
Bladesharp is a perfectly valid sword, axe or spear magic - only. Thus,
carpenters, hunters, fishermen and swordsmen are likely to have a few
points of this.
>> One more thing:
>> Bludgeon: The PRIMARY use of this spell is by metalsmiths and carpenters,
>> who cast it upon their hammers. This spell is also used by folks who have
>> jobs breaking rocks.
> Pity then that the cults who have it are mainly trollish war gods....
Obviously this needs some correction. Given the lack of Craft deities (best
distribution still for smith cults, but no patrons of pottery, carpentry,
one only for masonry and engineering - Flintnail, a local cult only) this
is hard to encourage. Orlanth Thunderous, Lodril and other main cultural
deities need subcults which can be entered by craftspersons of that trade
for no extra cost than a certain level of mastery, and then gain access to
these spells. But this is more a question for the various pantheon packs to
be published after RQ:AiG hits the market.
> Yes, we could be provided with an endless list of civilian spells; instead
> we get a short list of combat spells, plus a few inordinately effective
> treasure hunting spells like Detect (Substance). The really useful non-
> killing magic is mainly cult rune magic
Agreed.
>> Anyway, unless RQ:AiG is going to regress to its purely militaristic old
>> emphasis (and the 2nd edition was very heavily combat-militarism emphatic
>> by modern standards), we need to rethink the basic philosophy of magic and
>> many spells.
> RQ3 spirit magic is not much different from RQ2 battle magic; sorcery
> is a bit better, but still mainly for killing people.
The difference did not make it into the RQ3 rules, but built up as kind of
consensus between most people on this list. I doubt that the many isolated
RQ3 groups view this as we do.
But including civilian magics on a larger scale surely would be a plus to
distinguish RQ4 from other systems.
>> Remember, the PRIMARY use of the vast majority of magic in Glorantha is NOT
>> for combat, even spells that those of wargaming mentality call "combat"
>> spells. If RuneQuest is going to truely become "RuneQuest: Adventures in
>> Glorantha", let the magic reflect that.
> Absolutely agree about the primary use of magic: I just don't think we've
> ever seen much of the rest. We've seen combat spells.
Too true. These are what Adventuring characters will take. To allow for
sedentary characters who go averting dangers we need some other magics.
>> Therefore: Farming cults would probably teach "bladesharp" 1 but no higher.
>> Craft cults might teach "bludgeon" 1 but no higher, etc.
> No, farming cults teach Ploughsharp, a spell unrelated to Bladesharp.
> Craft cults teach Stronghammer, a spell to create things, not to smash them
> to pieces. They can teach powerful versions of these spells.
Agree about Ploughsharp (or Straightfurrow), disagree about Stronghammer,
unless this is made a song or a rhythm struck by the smith which keeps
working as long as the song is sung or the rhythm beaten. The possible
minor effectivity of these spells in combat I discussed above.
>> Remember, a knife can be a tool or a weapon, in many cultures it functioned
>> as both. We, in our age of narrow specialization, have often lost the
>> ability to see this versatility of function.
> And when you use it as a tool, use use tool magic; as a weapon, weapon
> magic. In his "Lord Darcy" books, Randall Garrett (sp?) wrote that
> "Magic is a matter of symbolism and intent"
> The symbolism and intent of Bladesharp are swords and killing, respectively.
Killing is harvesting, and to shape something from metal, one first has to
kill its old shape, and to strike a nail into something has a certain
killing effect, too (did you see lethal weapon 2?).
>> But this does not change the fact that emphasis on the "combat" aspects of
>> magic is too damned heavy--unless RQ:AiG is meant to continue the D&D
>> tradition of magic and campaign settings, that is...
> Absolutely: I'd love to see civilian spirit magic, but the list is very
> small. Detect, the Characteristic increasing spells, Second Sight, perhaps
> a few others.
Ok, so lets write up a few more.
I'd suggest:
Straightfurrow (instead of Ploughsharp)
see above
Whetting
see above, also useful for shearing sheep
Hammer's Dance
a smiths' and carpenters' magic, allowing to beat with increased accuracy and
effectivity as long as a certain rhythm is beaten on the anvil or nail,
partially between the strikes
"Rapid Cooling" (I forgot the technical term, and can't look it up here)
also smiths' magic, gives minor benefits on the producing process
Nimblethread
a weavers' magic useful for lassos or whips as well
Hotneedle
a tailors' spell useful for pointed objects, "hot" indicating speed, not heat,
Shapefast
a potters', bakers', thatchers', coopers', cobblers' spell to reinforce a shape
temporally, gives extra AP to objects or hit locations, too
(replaces Glue for some of these trades)
Kneading
a potters' and bakers' spell used on clay or dough, incidently increasing
fist damage
Most of these give a certain bonus to a craft roll, e.g. as complementary
skills (on efor each point of magic invested). All ought to be maintainable
for longer than 5 min or whatever spirit spell duration is by _keeping
doing it_ for no extra cost. In combat situations, keeping doing it is
impossible, so the effect is limited in duration.
All are accessible craft secrets. Master craft secrets ought to include
lasting effects which yield superior products. Maybe a variant of those Ki
skills.
-- Joerg Baumgartner rq4@sartar.toppoint.de (currently at work at ngl28@rz.uni-kiel.d400.de) 0,,
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