Re: [WorldofGlorantha] Re: Truedragons in the rest of Genertela

YGWV A couple of comments on dragons and True Dragons.

First, True Dragons are of the magnitude to participate in full scale mythological events, like fighting Orlanth.

Those of the "next size down," commonly called dream dragons, I am going to call Great Dragons to differentiate them from True Dragons, and make it clear that I consider the label of "dream" to be very misleading for most people (implying for them that they are, therefore, somehow les real than that cliff over there, or the forest, or people.)

Great Dragons are still so much greater than human beings that people often report them to be True Dragons, but they aren't. (Smaug in LotR would be a Great Dragon, not a True Dragon).

The True Dragons do not regularly, or even often, participate in worldly events.

> Peter Metcalfe
>
> >> Personally I think the God Learners defeated all the true dragons
> >> they could find and put them to sleep,

I don't think that they ever defeated any actual True Dragons of the west.

jorganos wrote:

> They sort of waltzed over Kralorela and eliminated the Emperor Dragon,

Who, while in his incarnate form, is not a True Dragon.

> probably neutralizing most of the other resident dragons, but I am
> less inclined to have them lay Thrunhin Da to sleep - they never
> controlled the Sea of Fog.

Thrunhin Da is a True Dragon, and has never been overcome by human beings.

> Pamaltela has few mentions of draconic entities, unless you count the
> hydras and Amuron, the Horned Serpent, Creator of the Fiwan and the world.

There are Pamaltelan dragons.

> The Sea Dragons conquered by Waertag aren't quite part of the draconic
> myths in either the central Genertelan or Kralori versions, and
> certainly are not directly related to Thrunhin Da. This makes the West
> pretty poor in dragons, too.

The dragons that were turned into Waertagi ships are not True Dragons. They were Great Dragons.

> Adept:
> > Is there any offiscial estimate on how many true
> > dragon exist on Glorantha anyway?

Plenty of estimates. No FACTS, because True Dragons transcend facts.

> The only census-like event I can think of right now was the
> Dragonkill. The dragons present there all appeared in the Genertelan
> shape, and I think (not based on any facts) that both Godunya and
> Thrunhin Da were absent.

Some True Dragons DID come to the Dragonkill, and some Kralori dragons as well. Whether or not they included Godunya and Thrunhim Da seems irreleant to me.

> Sandy published an article on a Kralori Dragon in a White Wolf issue
> which mentioned its participation in the Dragonkill, but whether that
> one was a True Dragon or a lesser draconic being I don't know.

I think it was probably a Great Dragon.

> (Neither can I say how canonical that article is...)

[Lets take a moment out and try a little exercise on canon here: was it published by one of the licensees of the game? No. Was it written by me? No. So, under what category of canon might it qualify under?]

> > I have a feeling that all of them
> > aren't sleeping as hills and mountains, but may be physically in the
> > heroplane, the Three Worlds or parhaps in short worlds of their very
> > own.
>
> True Dragons being connected to the Ultimate, anywhere they are is by
> definition not a short world but a valid Otherworld or part of the
> Mundane World (i.e. a hero plane).

I can imagine that a True Dragon could make a Short World, even though they are connected to the Ultimate (whatever that is for a dragon!)

> I don't think that they are
> restricted to one full manifestation "at a time" in all of those
> planes either.

Absolutely agreed. Just as Orlanth can be in multiple places and multiple forms at any moment, so can the True Dragons.

> > It sounds like more truedragons flew to the dragonkill than
> > inhabit the Dragon Pass

Again, I repeat: Great Dragons are often reported to be True Dragons.

> > (which are the only ones officially known
> > about).

See notes below, too.

I sort of like the idea that there are dozens, maybe even
> > hundreads of True Dragons all in all, but they either sleep through
> > the ages or inhabit timeless magical planes (like the Gods).

I don't think that a real census of True Dragons is possible.

> Very few are mentioned by name, and then some entities are named as
> dragons in some context and non-dragons at other times (e.g. Vith).
>
> Extant Dragons in central Genertela.
> Krisa Yar, the Red Dragon
> Green Dragon
> Brown Dragon / Dragon of Jarn
> Black Dragon
> are the four resident True Dragons of Dragon Pass.

And are legitimate manifestations of True Dragons. I make that distinction because what is seen there is not the whole dragon, any more than the storm is the entirety of Orlanth.

> There is also the Sun Dragon that can be contacted in Pavis, and the

Not a True Dragon.
Do not make the mistake that the Sun Dragons reported by different people are necessarily the same creature.

> Genertelan Dragon (Snake-whiskered ..) that was befriended by HonEel.
> Ormsfang is not listed as one of the True Dragons of Dragon Pass, but
> is a known dragon of the Eastern Rockwoods.

Peter's conclusion is correct: this is one of the Big Four in Dragon Pass. So, just as there is more than one so-called Sun Dragon, there are also multiple names for single entities.

> Besides the Dragonet of Dragon's Eye

Who may or may not be a True Dragon, because he is still manifest. When he passes on, leaving the post to the next candidate, he will be a True Dragon.

 > (and presumably that of Ryzel,
> according to some sources, while others say that Dragon's Eye is
> unique in having a Dragonet) there are known former Inhuman Kings.

The "inhuman king" of Ralios was destroyed in the Imperial Age.

> Killed Dragon Pass dragons include Aroka and Sh'Har'karzeel (in about
> 20 different spelling variations, including this one).

Both of which were indeed True Dragons.

> Killed EWF Dragons include Dreng, the Diamond Storm dragon. ^

Who, while Great, was not a True Dragon.

> The Emperor Sun of Dara Happa was reported to have been killed, but is
> said to be identical to the Sun Dragon that can be contacted in Pavis.
> Dead or not?

They are not the same entity, nor were they. The one in Pavis is far inferior to the one that ruled Dara Happa.

> Kralori dragons look and behave strange

And people in Kralorela treat them differently.

 > while in Kralorela (source:
> Anaxial's Roster), but appear to be numerous. Are they True Dragons?

No, mostly they are not.

> Did they appear as similar in shape to the four known ones of Dragon
> Pass during the Dragonkill?

Shape is determined in large part by the observer. The Kralori dragons are known to be benevolent, and so they often appear in benevolent form--i.e.- different from the ones in Dragonkill.

> There ought to be considerably more True Dragons than the ones I've
> listed here, or the number of six ancestral dragons would seem too high.

The Six Ancestors should be understood as poetic expressions of mortal beings, not Absolute Statements.

-- 
Sincerely,
Greg Stafford

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