Re: Heortling Marriage and Divorce

> I don't disagree about these behavior patterns being intrinsic. The
> point is how people receive these stories, both real world players and
> Gloranthan characters.

Which is why I think it is better to talk about non-divine marriages.  The gods don't always have to follow the same rules as mortals (frex, the gods aren't Heortlings)!

> > Amongst the patrilineal Heortlings (at least most Heortling clans),
> > that is right, but that is a clan thing.
>
> When most clans do it, and only a small minority doesn't, its a
> feature of the culture.

Sure. Most Heortling clans are patrilineal.

> > Some clans do it in reverse.
>
> And their ways have been called "Esrolian" for that.

Sure. Most Esrolian clans are matrilineal. But there is overlap. Some Esrolian clans are patrilineal and some Orlanthi clans are matrilineal.

> Now, the Blue Jay clan starts a feud with the Red Fox clan, long time
> allies and marriage partners of the Wild Cats. Especially, sisters and
> some of the girlhood friends of Durene are now prominent members of
> the Red Fox clan. This causes the relation between Durene and the Blue
> Jays to cool down, and Ranulf suffers more from this than most Blue
> Jay folk.

• Good stuff snipped ----
  >
  > Durene gets to pack up her things, and some extra from her prosperous
  > time with Ranulf. She leaves three children behind, and returns to the
  > Wild Cat clan.
  

And maybe is considered enough of an affront to the Wild Cats that it brings them into the feud on the side of the Red Fox clan. Durene is a source of friendship between the Blue Jays and the Wild Cats. If the Durene-Ranulf marriage is no more, then possibly so is the friendship with the Wild Cats! Maybe Durene's brothers decide to raid or even kill some Ranulf's kin to show the danger of not respecting the Wild Cats.

> Now, how often, and under what circumstances, will she be able to see
> her children?

Depends wildly. But likely this scenario will not end well.

> The Wild Cats don't really have a position for a divorced woman, and
> after a while Durene gets married to Orlgandi of the Stout Oaks,
> another ally of both the Wild Cats and the Red Foxes.

Boy, those Wild Cat matchmakers are really shrewd! Remember, the matchmakers probably came from another clan as well.

> To complete the Icelendic saga, 12 years later, the Blue Jays raid the
> Stout Oaks. The Stout Oaks raid back. Durene's sons stand with the
> defenders of the Blue Jays. Sorrow time all over.

Yep. Kinstrife commences!!! Sounds like a great campaign idea. :)

> So, Durene gets the same deal as Ranulf?

Ranulf may well be killed in the process. But you've described a tragedy - everyone gets screwed.

> > Women tend to have a broader social network than men - they have
> > both their birth clan AND their marriage clan. Men tend to focus
> > solely upon their birth clan.
> Which does create problems like the one I illustrated above. With the
> prevalence of male chieftains, the birth clan ties get played down in
> clan politics, especially in times of conflict.

Women will be extremely reluctant to allow their marriage clan to get into fights with their birth clan. Keep in mind that women - even though they are not usually born in the clan - have the same right to participate in clan assemblies as do the men. And they have a broader set of social networks to draw on.

This is also part of the reason why Triarchies tend to be so very stable and why tribes tend to form. I actually think women may end up having a more "tribal" perspective than most men.

> > Year marriages are far more common.
>
> More common than divorces, you mean?

Yep.

> Year marriages bring another problem. Where will a child be born if it
> takes the woman till mid-year to get pregnant?

If she doesn't renew the Year Marriage, then in her birth clan. Or maybe she gives the child to her husband's kin. Or maybe something else.

> Or is it common to start a year marriage if sexual intercourse has led
> to a pregnancy between the couple?

Could be.

> What if the couple has a child while unmarried, then marries? Who gets
> the child?

Depends on when. These sorts of things create disputes which may have to be argued out between the clans at the tribal assembly.

> > Here I disagree. Women keep their birth kin - they are not
> > Separated from their clan (like a Humakti, Uroxing or other
> > cultist). If Durene needs assistance from the Wild Cat clan,
> > she can call upon them. In some stories, the wife's kinfolk
> > are more relevant than the husband's.
>
> I don't disagree with that. Does this extend to her children, too?

In some cases it might.

> Does this remain even if Durene leaves the Blue Jays?

Possibly. It depends on the exact circumstances.

> What does this mean if the woman loses her marriage kin? Not just
> through divorce. How does a Heortling widow fare? What is the mythical
> precedence for that?

A widow usually stays in her marriage clan. She has her children and maybe her grandchildren and may ultimately end up being dominant within her marriage clan (or maybe she ends up penniless and supported by her deceased husband's kin).

I find this the fascinating irony about Heortling families. A women marries a man in another clan and goes to the other community. She has children and plays an increasing role in that new clan (and that role is formal and political). As her children become adults, she becomes an elder in her marriage clan and marries her daughters off to another clan (in many cases, her birth clan). The women get a bigger picture of how the communities work together than most men.

> The woman keeps her birth kin, but if she returns to them the birth
> kin won't keep her - they'll marry her off, again and again if
> necessary. The wives of her brothers will see to that.

Maybe. Depends on the circumstances.

Jeff             Received on Fri 06 Jul 2007 - 06:05:24 EEST